Still no consensus on ABS brakes on motorcycles. - Page 10 - GL1800Riders
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post #91 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisE View Post
My unEducated guess, accidents that don't happen don't recorded to statistics, so we don't know how many times ABS may have prevented an accident/statistic. Accidents that have fatalities, my gut feel, there probably wasn't enough space between the point of impact where any type of braking system would have made any difference.

It has been proven, over and over again, it's almost impossible for the average person to develop braking skills enough to be better than ABS in an emergency/panic situation.

I was fortunate to be able to work from home for about 15 years. My lunch hour consisted of a 40 mile back road ride on my Bimota Db2 (sports bike). Towards the end of my ride was a 2-3 mile stretch of deserted straight road. I would ride to 100mph and do an emergency stop down to 0mph, I would repeat this 5 or 6 times along this stretch of road. You start to get a feel of how quickly your bike will stop, plus get comfortable with the bike squirming beneath you.

I learned to squeeze my brake lever, rather than grabbing, on initial application of my front brake. I never locked my front wheel although I had my rear wheel off the ground many times. On my sport bike the rear brake was pretty much there for decoration only.

Unless you do exercises like this or are a racer or regular track day rider, it's tough to develop these skills, which is where ABS can be a crutch in an emergency.
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That we can agree on, this is true weather ABS or NON ABS. actual causation analyst need to be conducted at motorcycle accidents to determine if they could have actually been prevented by the implications of a safety device. To my knowledge this is not being done. Manufacturers of ABS equipment also has a vested interest in seeing it become law. Although I believe in the technology, I would like to see a independent study compiled of real world data that prove it would actually save lives before I would support a mandate.

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post #92 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:09 AM
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I am going to flip flop a little between both sides of the argument here.

Those that argue that ABS is ineffective like to quote cloudy test comparisons between ABS and non ABS bikes. But in making those arguments, they ignore the real benefit of ABS. A difference of 10-20 ft is virtually meaningless in real life.

The need for ABS on bikes is a lot different than that of cars, so we shouldn't be comparing the two here. We all know, or should know, that any kind of wheel lockup on a motorcycle is very bad. It's not just a matter of braking distance. You can't keep the bike upright if the wheels are not turning. In the rain, even the slightest lockup with either wheel will put you down before you even realize a wheel locked up. No human can react fast enough. It has to be avoided at all costs. This fact is not debatable. From that standpoint, there is a very strong argument that ABS is very beneficial, even if that were the only benefit. It is always a concern.

It is also true that it is not possible to gather any scientific proof of how many lives have been saved, or how many accidents have been prevented with ABS. Not only are there too many factors involved, but no accident investigation even tries to dig that deep into the forensics of an accident. There is simply no data available, just predictions.

Not including snow and ice in the winter, I have never activated ABS in any car I have owned. That covers a span of about 35 years. I have also never locked up a wheel on any street motorcycle I have ever ridden. That of course does not mean it can't happen someday. I always worry about it while riding in the rain on my bike.

From that standpoint, when I read about people claiming that ABS has save them many times, my thought is that they don't need ABS. They need a bus pass. I see cars and motorcyclists every day risking their lives with the way they travel the roads. They brake too late. They follow to close. They are unaware of what is in front of the vehicle they are following. They drive or ride too fast for conditions. and on and on.

Except for the wet weather I mentioned, ABS is mostly a way of saving people from themselves. People put themselves in position to fail. Situations where ABS can save you when it is due to no fault of your own should be a very very rare occurrence. I understand the reasons for wanting it, but I don't understand the panic over not having it. There is absolutely no reason why we should not be able to travel the roads without ABS and be safe in most situations.
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post #93 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 11:37 AM
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Motorcycle helmets are an "after market" purchase, however, the "government" requires us to buy and wear them.

That same logic should be applied to older motorcycles. Mandatory retro fit all motorcycles to ABS. Congress needs to act now! Enough of this other non sense.


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post #94 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:22 PM
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The evolution of motorcycles over the past 50 years of my riding experience is something to behold and look forward to new innovations. I'll accept all the help I can get as long as it doesn't get in the way. I believe ABS is an absolute benefit, a kind of "failsafe" or "backstop" that waits in the background until you need it. ABS alone does not prevent catastrophes but as it was stated earlier "it is another tool in the box". Should it be mandated? Heck NO!


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post #95 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 12:27 PM
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Actually Larry, I must disagree with you. If you look at the topic of this thread in the attached article it states "Safety advocates baffled that no agreement can be reached on mandatory motorcycle ABS in the U.S."

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying ABS isn't any good, they are just saying they want to be able to make the choice as to if this is going to be on their motorcycle rather than having it forced upon them.
Larry's post #61 is the most intelligent reality based post in this thread. It's not a matter of "freedom of choice". It's already beyond that....Not unlike technological progression from points to electronic ignition or carbs to injectors. The actual point of the information referenced in the OP is that the "motorcycle ABS" issue has become politicized into a 'freedom of choice" issue rather than being dealt with by establishing standards that benefit consumers and drive new and competitive technology into an industry that is lobbying politicians to not make them change.

Here is a perfect example of how we're getting our butts kicked by arguing that regulations are bad and increasingly trying to reduce everything to a freedom of choice argument....example...over a decade ago, EU motorcycle manufacturers and their governments created regulations to MANDATE new and future standards for motorcycle weights, fuel efficiency, clutch noise and efficiency, Oil emissions and oil service life, exhaust noise, emissions, tire noise, braking standards including wheel slippage, etc, etc, etc. WHY? They did this in order to drive new technology into motorcycles with the goal of of stagnating as many non-EU manufacturers as possible. It's working, they are building bikes two or three engineering generations ahead of other world manufacturers...including many of the Japanese big 4.

For all you "freedom of choice ideologs", your freedom of choice is: If you don't like something, don't buy it. Expecting manufacturers to still build and offer you a bike with separate sumps, carbs, cable operated throttle, no ABS, or whatever you don't want or think you should have pay for is just plain ignorance of free market capitalism and it's forces of competition, consumer demand, and production economy-of-scale.

There are always choices. Build your own, buy a used Wing or HD from their ever increasing used market supply, keep electing corporate protectionists and believing they will look out for you and "Merica's" best interest, do nothing, or just keep believing that your God given American freedom of choice is being taken from you. lol

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post #96 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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Larry's post #61 is the most intelligent reality based post in this thread. It's not a matter of "freedom of choice". It's already beyond that....Not unlike technological progression from points to electronic ignition or carbs to injectors. The actual point of the information referenced in the OP is that the "motorcycle ABS" issue has become politicized into a 'freedom of choice" issue rather than being dealt with by establishing standards that benefit consumers and drive new and competitive technology into an industry that is lobbying politicians to not make them change.

This is a perfect example of how we're getting our butts kicked by arguing that regulations are bad and increasingly trying to reduce everything to a freedom of choice argument....example...over a decade ago, EU motorcycle manufacturers and their governments agreed to MANDATE new and future standards for motorcycle weights, fuel efficiency, clutch noise and efficiency, Oil emissions and oil service life, exhaust noise, emissions, tire noise, braking standards including wheel slippage, etc, etc, etc. WHY? They did this in order to drive new technology into motorcycles with the goal of of stagnating as many non-EU manufacturers as possible. It's working, they are building bikes two or three engineering generations ahead of other world manufacturers...including many of the Japanese big 4. Your freedom of choice is: If you don't like something, don't buy it. Expecting manufacturers to still build and offer you a bike with separate sumps, carbs, cable operated throttle, no ABS, or whatever you don't want or think you should have pay for is just plain ignorance of free market capitalism and it's forces of competition, consumer demand, and production economy-of-scale....emphasis on "ignorance".
Just a little bit curious, do you feel that technology such as computers, cell phones, microwaves, flat panel TVS, smart watches, GPS, cars and motorcycles for that matter was driven by government mandates or by consumer demand because they found them useful. As stated earlier in a post, motorcycle ABS has been available for nearly two decades yet they only account for around 15% of registered motorcycles. For those who feel they cannot do without it..it's available.

BTW: Always love your post.
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post #97 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 01:34 PM
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Still no consensus on ABS brakes on motorcycles.

Funny how we always have to look at the EU as an example of things to aspire. Leave the socialism over there. I have no interest in forcing others to ride with ABS. I am just glad it's available to me as an option. In the end my motorcycling is all about me. I will not burden the rest of you, so please stop dreaming up **** to force on to me.

Let the market decide!


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post #98 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JonfromCB View Post
Larry's post #61 is the most intelligent reality based post in this thread. It's not a matter of "freedom of choice". It's already beyond that....Not unlike technological progression from points to electronic ignition or carbs to injectors. The actual point of the information referenced in the OP is that the "motorcycle ABS" issue has become politicized into a 'freedom of choice" issue rather than being dealt with by establishing standards that benefit consumers and drive new and competitive technology into an industry that is lobbying politicians to not make them change.

Here is a perfect example of how we're getting our butts kicked by arguing that regulations are bad and increasingly trying to reduce everything to a freedom of choice argument....example...over a decade ago, EU motorcycle manufacturers and their governments created regulations to MANDATE new and future standards for motorcycle weights, fuel efficiency, clutch noise and efficiency, Oil emissions and oil service life, exhaust noise, emissions, tire noise, braking standards including wheel slippage, etc, etc, etc. WHY? They did this in order to drive new technology into motorcycles with the goal of of stagnating as many non-EU manufacturers as possible. It's working, they are building bikes two or three engineering generations ahead of other world manufacturers...including many of the Japanese big 4.

For all you "freedom of choice ideologs", your freedom of choice is: If you don't like something, don't buy it. Expecting manufacturers to still build and offer you a bike with separate sumps, carbs, cable operated throttle, no ABS, or whatever you don't want or think you should have pay for is just plain ignorance of free market capitalism and it's forces of competition, consumer demand, and production economy-of-scale.

There are always choices. Build your own, buy a used Wing or HD from their ever increasing used market supply, keep electing corporate protectionists and believing they will look out for you and "Merica's" best interest, do nothing, or just keep believing that your God given American freedom of choice is being taken from you. lol
You just argued giving us choices by taking away our choices. You sound like a politician.

We have choices now. Your solution for choice is all or nothing. Poppycock! The European bikes you are talking about are at a level that most motorcyclists can't afford. They are putting out innovations that very few here in the US want or are willing to pay for. That is why the market share for European bikes in the US is so small.

I am perfectly fine with Europeans having their own values. Just don't try to shove it down our throats. Innovation will happen without regulations in its own time. You couldn't stop it if you tried. It doesn't need nanny laws to help it along. The market will determine whether it is viable or not.
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post #99 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 09:54 PM
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Understood. I've got a heavily modified Challenger with a supercharged 426 shaker. It delivers more HP than my street tires can hold and it has no traction control. It's way harder to drive than my truck....it's also a lot more fun. My buddy has a '17 Camaro SS and he can get me off the line every time but if we do a 3rd wheel roll on, I'll destroy him. Old school muscle is fun stuff.

Bottom line...I guess I really like both the old school basic stuff and the modern stuff as well. Both are very cool to me. (old stuff sounds better though....that supercharged Hemi with a corsa exhaust sounds like a dragon breathing. Best sound in the world. )
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post #100 of 138 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 10:02 PM
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One reason given was that drivers has become more aggressive because of it and has failed to learn proper braking techniques.
I don't mean to be off topic, but in a way it isn't. When roll cages were first being discussed for sprint cars, the primary argument against them was that drivers would get more aggressive and cause even more wrecks. The exact same argument was even used when wings were first used. While the argument did prove correct, there was however less fatalities.

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