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Harley takes a thrashing

4K views 46 replies 26 participants last post by  traveler46 
#1 ·
Indian has come out swinging with the brand new Scout FTR750 dirt tracker. They are taking no prisoners in the first year of their return to dirt track. I don't think even in their wildest dreams they could have thought this could happen. I bet the midnight oil is burning in Milwaukee. I bet if things don't change soon they will have to have the rules changed :duck::duck::duck:

http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-...ws/indian-motorcycle-fourth-sweep-at-okc-mile
 
#7 ·
I attended the Phoenix Mile when it was in town this year......some great racing for sure. Indian dominated the twins class and won the event. Harley has gone out and hired Terry Vance (of Vance & Hines) to manage the flat track racing program. If the success of Harleys NHRA drag racing program is any indicator, I'm sure the flat track team will be posting some wins soon.
 
#12 ·
Indian has come out swinging with the brand new Scout FTR750 dirt tracker. They are taking no prisoners in the first year of their return to dirt track. I don't think even in their wildest dreams they could have thought this could happen. I bet the midnight oil is burning in Milwaukee. I bet if things don't change soon they will have to have the rules changed :duck?duck:

http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-...ws/indian-motorcycle-fourth-sweep-at-okc-mile
I love to see Indian give Harley a little competition, its about time and they are doing it with the 111 Thunder stroke too! :wink2:
 
#13 · (Edited)
WARNING: Random thoughts to follow......

This sounds like the old "Victory is killing Harley Sales" hype that went on for a while.... until Polaris ceased manufacturing of Victory Motorcycles.

I could give a rat sass about "Indian" beating Harley on the flat track......

And to all the conspiracy theorists - NHRA (and other such organizations) are all about the $$$.
Attendance and ticket sales and endorsements and $$$ drive the rules.
When the money slows down, the rules get changed to better collect revenue.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for posting that, I couldn't find it. I wanted to post it to show what it takes for a 2 cyl turning 8k to be able to compete against a 4cyl turning 14k. It also shows how little some people know about those engines.
 
#19 ·
Everyone love to see a competitive race for sure but you also have to take into consideration H-D is running a new bike too. Gone is the all time winningest dirt track engine of all time, the XR-750 and now they are running a street based motor XG-750R. So the orange & black are learning with each race also. Can they catch Indian???
 
#23 ·
Honda Factory built the RS 750 dirt tracker in the '80s and kicked Harley's butt winning 4 championships in a row. Rather than compelling the Harley Factory to build a competitive flat tracker, the AMA started adding weight and restrictor plates to the Hondas until the Harleys could win again. Honda got tired of the AMA's games and got out of it. I didn't blame them. It was very clear the AMA didn't want the Hondas dominating the sport. I don't think it would be very smart for Honda to invest resources in the sport again.
 
#24 ·
1/2 of people involved agree with your comment. The other 1/2 feel that Honda accomplished what it set out to do and then went on to other things. Romero who was involved in the Honda development said “There was nothing left to prove,” he points out, “plus it was a typical Honda deal, test the waters, go racing full boat, dominate the competition, and then jump off. That’s their method of operation.”
Its very common for all motor sports to put restrictions on engines once they start to dominate. No one or organization wants to see one brand domination that runs off all others and then jacks up the prices for equipment. Promoters especially don't want to see it because it hurts their bleacher count. I personally find it hard to believe that the AMA would change rules to chase off Honda. I went to just about every race at Louisville, DuQuoin, Springfield and Peoria during the Honda years and the crowds were huge. 1/2 wearing Graham and Shobert shirts (I still have one somewhere) and 1/2 Springsteen and Parker. After Honda left, things slowly dwindled down, but picked back up a little after Kawasaki, KTM and others came into it.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Professional motorcycle racing is for the most part a scam. In car racing, the cars, even in NASCAR, bear no resemblance to anything that is driven on the street, so there is very little attachment to brand names. It is the drivers that people follow and cheer for, so parity in the vehicles works.

But in motorcycle racing, the brand names take center stage, because in most cases the bikes have a lot in common with what is available on the sales floor. Handicapping still makes a bit of sense to bring teams that are already close in competitiveness even closer.

But when a manufacturer is so badly over-matched that they have to be allowed to run engines nearly twice the size in order to be competitive, then, I'm sorry, they just don't belong there. The same thing that happened with Harley in NHRA also happened in AMA Superbike racing, by allowing them to run 1200cc engines in the 600cc class. How can a company (or fan) be proud of winning a championship after being given such a huge advantage?

If a V-twin isn't competitive, and you want to get into racing, then you build something that IS competitive, or you don't race. It's that simple. They don't belong there any more than I belong on a golf course with Phil Mickelson.

But even the V-twin argument doesn't hold up. Ducati has shown that by employing capable engineers and using modern technology, V-twins can be as capable as any other type of engine. The racing organizations do fans a disservice by giving teams a place at the table when they have no business being there.

I don't blame dominant teams like Honda from dropping out of racing one bit. They have nothing to gain when severe handicapping prevents them from showcasing their engineering prowess. But with flat track racing, who really cares? It is pretty much an outdated and forgotten form of racing for most people anyway that has not generated any national headlines in decades. From a marketing standpoint, it's a waste of money.
 
#28 · (Edited)
But even the V-twin argument doesn't hold up. Ducati has shown that by employing capable engineers and using modern technology,
In what pro organization does a Ducati v-twin race against and beat a 4cyl ? Why does Golfing allow handicapping ? If you can't beat someone one on one, then don't play. Right ? :D
 
#26 ·
H-D has a huge fan base,and as long as they are racing they are gonna be cheered on.
Flat track racing is the only event that H-D has been competitive in,while the Honda,Suzuki,Kawasaki,Yamaha,etc.have been competitive in multi events for many years.
You would think that specializing in one type of racing,H-D would dominate,no matter the competition.
 
#37 ·
The Indian demo truck was at a local dealer in San Jose for Father's Day weekend. I volunteered to handle registration and run sweep for the demo rides. I saw a lot of Harley riders who were seriously interested in Indians.

The electronics are modern, unlike our beloved 'wing, especially in the GPS and audio departments. Most Indians are now keyless. Legs are stretched out in front instead of being tucked under. The position is quite comfortable even without a backrest. The bikes have plenty of power. Shifting is incredibly smooth. If it weren't for the loud pipes and vibration from a twin, I might be interested.

Indian is working hard toward gaining market share and I think their plans are bearing fruit. Maybe that will help push MH to update the 17 year old GL1800 design.

Bob
 
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#38 ·
The Indian winning streak was broken at Lima Saturday 6/24.

1st Briar Bauman on a Kawasaki

2nd Brad Baker on Indian

3rd Jeffrey Carver Jr. on a Kawasaki

The only Harleys to qualify for the main came in 7th and 8th

http://www.americanflattrack.com/results/default
 
#40 ·
HARLEYS BUYING DUCATI !! :surprise::surprise::smile2:
 
#45 ·
I don't know if this is still true but several years ago HD was running an engine they called a HD in NHRA drag racing but not one part of it actually was. They handmade an engine that had to look similar to a HD engine. At the same time the 4 cylinder Suzukis still have to run actual Suzook motors. Plus HD also got the additional cc's. Oh, the old undersized Suzuki won the title the end of the year last year.
 
#47 ·
The HD engines you talk of are built by Vance and Hines to somewhat simulate the 60 degree V-rod engine. HD did not build the engines but in this case, they are sponsored by HD. The so-called V-rod 60 degree engines were limited to 160 cubes compared to 92 cubes for the Suzukis. The 45 degree engines referred to as Buell are 2400 CC engines. Without any doubt, the NHRA rule change so the underdog could be competitive made a huge difference in popularity of NHRA pro-stock racing. Wonder if my 50 cc pocket rocket could play the game if the rules were modified?
 
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