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I give up. What should my battery draw when the bike is off

28K views 110 replies 31 participants last post by  GoldWingrGreg 
#1 ·
I searched both the net and here for an hour so I'm just going to ask.

I'm showing a key off draw of between 122.3 to 134.4 putting my multimeter set on 200ma in series with my neg terminal. To me that's way too much. I know it's gonna be a mf to find the problem (I already tried the easy stuff) but is that too high? Am I reading the thing correctly. The only thing that drops it to near zip is pulling the battery fuse... pulling any of the others does nothing.

Suggestions on where to start are welcome.

create this "word" for search RomeoandJuliet
 
#27 ·
Good point about the MP3 player. If I remember correct, there is a pin in the CD changer port that is always hot even when the key is off. So anything that plugs into this connector could be suspect. I also agree that most of the time, the problem is caused by aftermarket stuff that has been added, so those are the things I'd look at first.
I forgot that I also have a Scorpio alarm drawing current when the ignition is off.
The float charger is supposed to put out 1 MA when in float to maintain 13.2 volts. I measured mine and found the float is staying at 36 to 37 MA. The flicker is likely my flashing dummy Lojak red LED :lol:.

So here is what I have running in the background:
1) Flashing Dummy Lojak LED
2) Argus Battery Bug
3) Pedro's MP3 player
4) Doran TPMS Receiver
5) Anything the bike may draw in the background.

I don't have any problems starting after a week but don't think it is good for a parasitic load to draw the battery down. I read once the voltage where plates begin to sulfide but don't remember. I think I will keep the float charger connected when in the garage with my excess parasitic farkles:shrug:.
 
#29 ·
ATCGuy (Tom) brought his bike down to the shop when the local dealers could not find a draw on his bike. We started with all the usual suspects and came up empty. When I disconnected the power wire at the alternator, the draw disappeared. Last I heard the he had the dealer replace the alternator and that had solved the problem.
 
#31 ·
Also it may not matter but parastitic draw is always done on positive cable.

Just saying
From a measurement standpoint, it doesn't matter whether you use the positive or negative lead. The current flowing out of the battery is always identical to the current flowing back to it.

In fact, the negative lead would be a much safer method to use because touching the ground lead to something like the frame would not cause a problem. Drop your test lead from the battery onto the frame, and it would cause all hell to break loose.
 
#33 ·
I don't think this is your problem because you didn't mention having one, just something else to consider but I know you already have this covered. On one of my bikes I have a control module for LEDs that has a constant draw since it was always on 'standby' waiting on the remote signal. Within three days it would drain the battery. I put in a switch to the module and haven't had an issue since. BTW, I found the problem by pulling each fuse until I found the culprit.
:shrug:
You are in good hands with Techdude, Fred and Larry. They won't sleep until your problem is resolved.:bow: I have a ton more respect for them than our local dealership.
 
#35 ·
:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:

That being said. Mr. Fortune (not Miss Fortune thankfully) was watching over me today. With the information supplied by ChgoD in my head, I pulled the side cover and removed the bolt from my negative terminal in such a way that the extra eyelet I have hooked there for ground wires was just barely touching the post. By just touching I mean it was so close that it was arcing dark orange sparks and under my seat seemed to reside a bumble bee. In response to the vibrating wire on the terminal, a relay was telegraphing me both its presence and location. I pulled the wire away and it went silent. Put wire to terminal and >click< goes the relay. Pull and click. Voila! I anxiously (in a good way) yanked off the seat to find the offender.

Nine or more years ago as some may know, I hooked up Anytime 4 ways. At the time, I did not use a relay because I had stout enough a switch to work them without. Well, about five years ago, I moved the switch to inside my left rear speaker pocket finding another use for the existing. Because the leads were of a gauge too light on that push button, I inserted inline a relay to do the heavy lifting. Worked fine. When these were on I knew it and when they were off I knew as well. The lights blinking was huge tip off.

Seems about a year and a half ago (as per the date on the pic I don't remember exactly), I decided to replace both my OEM Hazard switch and my now (then) cracked EC foglite switch as a matched set. In so doing, I moved the Anytime 4 ways to the new switch sans relay. I remember clearly (now :roll:) that I thought to myself then, "Let's keep that switch and relay since we may find a use for it." I capped off the relay output when I moved that direct feed to my new switch which was stout and I wanted the flasher in front so the switch would blink too. That took about an hour. Finishing, I re-assembled the bike then put on my seat and was "done" (or so I thought). Now, had I done this nine years ago, I would have remembered to also pull the hot lead from that switch to that relay trigger once I got all the new stuff working.

Time having passed since 9 years ago and fading memory being what it is for me these days, I neglected to remove the trigger wires. In that rear pocket where the switch lived, I put my cell phone on the charger when riding with my bluetooth headset. Well, since I moved the switch and since I got a new phone, in putting the phone in the pocket with the charger, the phone or the charger pushed the switch (it's a tight fit). The result was a relay that was always triggered while making no one aware because there were no blinking lights to signify. Obviously (now) this would draw from the battery 135 ma 24/7 (they are called Anytime 4 ways for a reason). This is what caused my old battery to die in about three days. After removing the offender from the circuit, my battery draws a respectable 4.2 to 5.1 ma depending on which meter I hook to it (thanks art1976).

Thanks for listening to this adventure and for all your suggestions ChgoD's being the key one as it turned out. I hope this helps someone else to learn one thing that I [re]learned. DO NOT start another step in a project until you have completely thought through and FINISHED the current step. It's remarkable throughout this journey all the folks in this great community who will jump in and offer help to someone in distress (puns intended).

I remain your humble servant. :bow:
 
#37 ·
...Now we just have to get together and fix ATCguy's leak. :thumbup:
Ha! I wish.

Thanks for the thought... but I've come to the conclusion that the bike just has some type of an intermittent slow drain on it somewhere that ain't gonna be found.

It all began not long after I got the bike back in '05. Same symptoms throughout... just not on any type of consistent basis.

If I ride the bike everyday... no problems. She starts right up, and I have a nice day. But if I allow her to sit for a few days.... sometimes a week, but it has occasionally been as few as 2 days... it's dead as a door-nail.

Now anyone who knows me is aware that while I'm pretty good with a wrench... I'm dumber than dog chit when it comes to anything past simple electrical work. That said... I've managed over the years to install a number of aftermarket electrical gadgets all over my bike.

However, all of those gadgets have been placed on 2 fuse blocks with appropriate relays: 1 with constant power... and 1 with switched power.

When diagnosing the bike, we... the person who actually knows something about electronics & myself... have removed both of those from the equation, and yet the majority of the time, we still haven't found any parasitic draw. I've had certified electricians look at it... certified aviation A&P electricians look at it... you name it.

Finally, last summer... I happened to be taking a trip down to Fontana Village for a week. So I called Lewis and scheduled a day to ride over to Knoxville and have him look at it in his shop. After a couple of hours of crawling over the bike, digging into manuals, and a couple of phone calls to trusted associates... he had found an occasional draw, the culprit of which he felt was the voltage regulator inside the alternator. Since we didn't have another new alternator laying around, and I only had 1 day there... we buttoned everything back up, and I continued my trip.

When I got home... I took it over to a local Honda dealer, and had them check the alternator for replacement under my extended warranty. Well, you can imagine how that went. First off, their 'good Wing mechanic' was supposedly on an extended leave of absence for legal troubles. So the other guy looks at it, and of course, he finds nothing wrong. I explain to him exactly what was done... and even get Lewis on the phone for the guy. Miraculously at that point, he says he found it. Whether he really found the draw, didn't wanna deal with me anymore, or just didn't want to talk to Lewis... I'm not sure. But they agreed to order a replacement, and schedule a time to install it after it arrived.

Yada, yada, yada... it arrived, I took the bike over... they screwed other things up when putting the bike back together... a comedy of errors. It took 3 days, but they said they did in fact install a new alternator. When I asked to have my old one back, the guy blinked... looked sheepish... and said they didn't have it. That because it was a warranty repair, they had to send the old one back to (wherever) for verification so they could get paid. Sounded like rubbish to me, but I left.

So as soon as I got home... I had to remove the top shelter anyway from where the idiots at the Honda dealer had left the 2 large stereo plugs unconnected when they put the bike back together. (did I mention the comedy of errors?) While I had the bike apart up top, I figured I may as well look at the 'new' alternator to see if they had really done the work they said that they did. Well... the one that was in there looked new. Nice, shiny silver case, and what appeared to be new labels. If if wasn't new, they'd sure gone to a lot of work to make my 5 years of use old alternator look good.

The first week, all seemed well. I left the bike in the garage for 3 days... and it started right up. Great!! Well, that lasted for about 2 weeks.

I go out one day to ride to work, after it had been sitting for 3 or 4 days... turned the key... nada. Nothing. Completely dead.

Thinking maybe the old battery had just been drained/recharged one time too many.. I ordered a new battery, charged it for an entire day, and then installed it. About a week later I go to ride the bike after letting it sit for a few days... Dead again.

Since then, every time I park it in the garage... I just automatically hook it up to the battery tender. And it hasn't given me a problem since. But then again, by hooking it up to the tender, I haven't given it a chance to.

Gremlins...
 
#38 ·
By your description and the seemingly intermittent occurance of it, my guess would be a relay the fails to de-energize when you shut it off. That kind of a problem will not be found unless it's caught in the act. I'll admit, that could be pretty tough.
 
#39 ·
I would suggest to ATCguy that he buy one four pin relay and one five pin relay. Once each week, replace a set of relays in the bank with the new ones. If you find one that leaves the bike live, you found it.

Or, test the battery at the negative terminal in series for miliamps as I did if possible. If you get a reading around 135 suspect a relay stuck as ChgoD has suggested and I confirmed is what an energized relay draws.

or
You might try doing this..... put a jumper wire on your disconnected negative cable and with the other end, tap the battery terminal and listen carefully.

Again, you have to catch it in the act as I was lucky enough to do...... I probably would have found it anyway because my plan was to set the measurement and go through my relays one by one, aftermarket first and the relay bank next, until I found it. Turns out, it telegraphed so it found itself.
 
#40 ·
Thanks Waldo... but that would have to be something for someone more experienced with electrical work than me to do.

Quite frankly, I've been advised to do so many different things, and try so many different tricks to find it over the years that I'm just plain sick & tired of dealing with it... especially since I don't really know what I'm doing to begin with. Volt meters, amp measurements, etc. just aren't my thing.

If there was a good place nearby to take the bike and leave it for 6-to-8 weeks, and let them deal with it until it was found & REALLY fixed... I would. But as it stands... I reckon I'll just simply keep plugging it into the battery tender. At least I know that works.
 
#41 ·
I had resigned myself to the same, just plug it in every time. However, my winter migration is looming and I will be places where a tender is not possible and I do not wish to be stranded so I dug in. I was really lucky which is not normally the way things go for me.

This meter will tell you if you have a draw. Disconnect the negative terminal (front one) from your battery. Set the dial on the meter to 200ma then you put the + (red) terminal to the post and the - (black) to the disconnected negative cable of your battery and turn on the meter. see if you have a reading. If not, you have not caught the girl being naughty. If you do have a reading, she can be found. leave it hooked up that way and pull each fuse one at a time. See which one makes the reading disappear. That's where your problem lies. It will narrow it down. Pull the seat and pull relays one at a time if you need to and see if the reading drops. Might work.

If I was close to Long Island, I'd drop by and show you how.

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-90899.html
 
#46 ·
If I remember, ATC Guy's problem is intermittent, and as Techdude pointed out, it has to be acting up when you take your measurements, or you are wasting your time. Intermittents are the most maddening of all troubleshooting tasks. And for what it's worth, I would not ever use that arc test as a way to troubleshoot. You are just asking to blow out the electronics on your bike. Not only that, but batteries expel explosive gas. I don't even like seeing one quick little spark when I am hooking up a battery.

It is very rare for today's semiconductors to intermittently leak current. So it is unlikely that it is a module that is causing the excessive current draw. An intermittently sticking relay is a pretty good bet.

This really should be fixed. A Battery Tender is not the solution. It is guaranteed to come back and bite you in the butt.

I like Waldo's solution, but I would expand on it. Buy 5 of each of the two types of relays instead of one. That gives you about a 50% shot at fixing it on the first guess. We could even put our minds together and give you the most likely relays to cause the problem just to increase the odds in your favor. Troubleshooting electronics is not always a sophisticated task done by geeks with a meter and a schematic. Many times it just involves common sense, and substitution is a very powerful troubleshooting tool, despite not being a very thigh tech solution.

It may seem like a waste of money. But would you rather drop $150 on relays and actually fix the problem, or let it sit at the dealer for two weeks and pay them $500 to fix it?

If you can take the seat off your bike, you can replace the relays.
 
#47 ·
Larry said, "despite not being a very thigh tech solution.

I just gotta kid you a bit, Larry. I was wondering what you were really thinking about when you wrote that!! Thigh tech might be a very interesting study ... Guess my mind must have also been wandering a bit!

Thanks to all of you who have posted here with regard to possibilities to discover the solution to the problems presented. This has been a very high level discussion, in my opinion.
 
#48 ·
Risk of explosion is minimal, just do it in a well ventilated area. Pulling a shorted or stuck relay that's drawing current is going to arc too and the arc from 130 MA is not likely to ignite any stray gas.

The '05 has 6 five pinners @ 13.50 and 14 four pinners @ 3.97. To replace the entire bank would cost about $130 + tax. After market electrical farkles are more likely to cause problems. Especially if the relays used are not sealed. I use only sealed relays and in some instances computer relays or reed relays if the load is light.

http://www.route66supply.com/store/page85.html

In my investigation, I found my fog light fuse to be badly corroded it not being a sealed unit. I replaced it with a sealed inline fuse unit. The relay was ok, being waterproof.

A visit to the boat shop or even an RV shop will get you the right water resistant parts.
 
#49 ·
Yeah, I think the last guy who blew his face off said that too.;) But even if you want to ignore the risk to yourself, arcing may not harm a 63 Impala, but it sure can hurt your GL1800.

Relays can stick whether they are sealed or not. It is not dirt and oxidation that causes them to stick. It is the tiny arc that happens every time the contacts close. Capacitors across the contacts help minimize the arcing, but not eliminate it.

As the contacts become pitted over time from arcing, they develop pointed edges, and the arcing gets worse. Eventually the arcing will act like a tiny welder and tack weld the contacts together. When you turn the ignition off, the contacts can't open because they are welded, so current continues to flow even after the ignition is off. That is when you start developing the problems being discussed here.

I agree with you that aftermarket accessories are responsible for electrical gremlins more often than not. OEM systems are far more reliable than people give them credit for.
 
#50 ·
Larry said, "despite not being a very thigh tech solution.

I just gotta kid you a bit, Larry. I was wondering what you were really thinking about when you wrote that!! Thigh tech might be a very interesting study ... Guess my mind must have also been wandering a bit!
LOL, must have been some kind of Freudian slip. I AM a leg man, and did just get done looking at some pictures of Jenifer Aniston. Must have stuck in my head. :lol:
 
#51 ·
Pedro's MP3 player will kill a battery charge in less than a month.
As noted there are two power signals, switched and unswitched for the CD. From my experiences only the early MP3 units used the unswitched power. Power is supplied from the switched circuit instead (a move of the pin only). Mine draws ZERO from the bike with the key off. Since there are several MP3 player models, Peter should pipe-up and list which models drew power from the unswitched lines...
 
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