Tools for All Balls bearing install - Page 2 - GL1800Riders
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-09-2016, 02:09 PM
JW.
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Originally Posted by mountainman8 View Post
On a 2012 model: What kind of tools or special tools are needed to remove old bearings and install new All Balls in triple tree?
And what is Nut torque for head?
Though pulling the bearings into the head tube and pressing the bearing onto the tree spindle is the best way, you can do a good job using drifts, a tube, block of wood and a hammer. The drift needs to be plenty long enough to go through the headstock so you are swinging the hammer at least a reasonable distance from the bike frame - it's just easier that way. It need be nothing more than a piece of flat steel bar narrow enough to fit into the recess above the bearing and wide enough to have the required stiffness to take the hammer blows. You have to use it from above (easy enough) and below (a little more awkward). The end of the drift needs to be cleanly cut so that it doesn't slip off the bearing and you may need to reface the end if your bearings are particularly tight. There are two recesses and you should tap through each one alternatively so as not to coggle the bearing too much because this will risk damaging the bearing seat.

Presuming you don't have a long puller, the bearing on the stem is best removed by destroying it. I grind through it on both sides then finally split it using a cold chisel at an angle to the race. Clean up all grinding dust and don't grind anywhere near your work bench to prevent general contamination by metal and grind wheel dust. I wash the parts in hot water using dish washing detergent and immediately dry them, they'll be hot and they dry quickly.

The shaft bearing can be fitted using a suitable diameter and length of tube, push it on if you have a press or hammer it on, using a block of wood below the bottom yolk to prevent damage to the yolk. Again, as with the drift, the end of the tube needs to be square to the axis of the tube and finished so that there is even pressure to the bearing. Put a bit of rag over the bearing to prevent contamination while hammering it on. Don't forget to install the grease seal first!!

Fitting the outer races into the head stock is a little trickier. Partly because you are fitting hardened steel into soft aluminium, partly because they are a tight fit and starting them squarely is not so easy and partly because access to the lower one is limited while you are working from below. Anyway, without a puller, you have to drift them in with whatever tools you have to hand. This is where the block of hardwood comes in handy and I can normally find a socket from my socket set which is a suitable diameter to use as a drift. Again cleanliness is important and you need to keep your hammer and drifts clean too or they will shed their dirt on every hammer blow!

Always, always, lubricate the bearing fitting surface and its housing or shaft before fitting - did I say always!? And be scrupulously clean about everything - although they vary, as a guide, a human hair is about 4 thou thick so even a tiny piece of hair under the bearing will give it a coggle at the final fitting.

One thing to note; it's always better to use a large hammer gently than to use a small hammer wildly!

Now the tightening torque - I've buggered about with this numerous times and at present I've got it the best I can at 7lbs/ft and tightened the lock nut firmly. Tightening the locknut adds a little more preload, about the equivalent of 2lbs/ft more torque I reckon.

Now, the contentious bit - I have the taper roller bearings fitted because they came with a Traxxion tree and top yolk, I didn't have any deceleration wobble - No way would I fit them again and when there is the next rebuild of the front end, they will be relegated to the trash can and original Honda bearings will go back in.
Did I say no way?

However, I will admit to being at a loss to understand how the ball bearings are any different to the taper bearings once the preloads are set correctly - but they are.

I hope this is helpful info for you. Good luck with it.
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Last edited by JW.; 12-09-2016 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Just a thought....
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 01:27 PM
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Isn't there more contact area with a tapered roller bearing? The reason for them is to disperse the load better, no?. I think of it as the pothole or hard seam hit out on the road. My 89 pc800 came from the manufacturer with them. Yes, I've seen the dent lines in tapered roller bearing races causing the detent experienced in 1500's (Those came from the factory with tapered rollers too). I just wouldn't go back to captured ball bearings in the steering stem. I'll play with setup until it's right. By the way, I'm at 10# torque on the nut for 4# pull on the fish scale. That's on the Traxxion TT and All Ball's bearings.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JW. View Post
Though pulling the bearings into the head tube and pressing the bearing onto the tree spindle is the best way, you can do a good job using drifts, a tube, block of wood and a hammer. The drift needs to be plenty long enough to go through the headstock so you are swinging the hammer at least a reasonable distance from the bike frame - it's just easier that way. It need be nothing more than a piece of flat steel bar narrow enough to fit into the recess above the bearing and wide enough to have the required stiffness to take the hammer blows. You have to use it from above (easy enough) and below (a little more awkward). The end of the drift needs to be cleanly cut so that it doesn't slip off the bearing and you may need to reface the end if your bearings are particularly tight. There are two recesses and you should tap through each one alternatively so as not to coggle the bearing too much because this will risk damaging the bearing seat.

Presuming you don't have a long puller, the bearing on the stem is best removed by destroying it. I grind through it on both sides then finally split it using a cold chisel at an angle to the race. Clean up all grinding dust and don't grind anywhere near your work bench to prevent general contamination by metal and grind wheel dust. I wash the parts in hot water using dish washing detergent and immediately dry them, they'll be hot and they dry quickly.

The shaft bearing can be fitted using a suitable diameter and length of tube, push it on if you have a press or hammer it on, using a block of wood below the bottom yolk to prevent damage to the yolk. Again, as with the drift, the end of the tube needs to be square to the axis of the tube and finished so that there is even pressure to the bearing. Put a bit of rag over the bearing to prevent contamination while hammering it on. Don't forget to install the grease seal first!!

Fitting the outer races into the head stock is a little trickier. Partly because you are fitting hardened steel into soft aluminium, partly because they are a tight fit and starting them squarely is not so easy and partly because access to the lower one is limited while you are working from below. Anyway, without a puller, you have to drift them in with whatever tools you have to hand. This is where the block of hardwood comes in handy and I can normally find a socket from my socket set which is a suitable diameter to use as a drift. Again cleanliness is important and you need to keep your hammer and drifts clean too or they will shed their dirt on every hammer blow!

Always, always, lubricate the bearing fitting surface and its housing or shaft before fitting - did I say always!? And be scrupulously clean about everything - although they vary, as a guide, a human hair is about 4 thou thick so even a tiny piece of hair under the bearing will give it a coggle at the final fitting.

One thing to note; it's always better to use a large hammer gently than to use a small hammer wildly!

Now the tightening torque - I've buggered about with this numerous times and at present I've got it the best I can at 7lbs/ft and tightened the lock nut firmly. Tightening the locknut adds a little more preload, about the equivalent of 2lbs/ft more torque I reckon.

Now, the contentious bit - I have the taper roller bearings fitted because they came with a Traxxion tree and top yolk, I didn't have any deceleration wobble - No way would I fit them again and when there is the next rebuild of the front end, they will be relegated to the trash can and original Honda bearings will go back in.
Did I say no way?

However, I will admit to being at a loss to understand how the ball bearings are any different to the taper bearings once the preloads are set correctly - but they are.

I hope this is helpful info for you. Good luck with it.
Pretty much what I did after first torquing them way too tight per Traxxion instructions. I agree with you. I would not install the tapered ones again either, except, they were already installed on the lower part of the Traxxion Triple tree. I sure would go to the mess of installing them though for the sake of getting "tapered bearings".

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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
However, I will admit to being at a loss to understand how the ball bearings are any different to the taper bearings once the preloads are set correctly - but they are.
I'm not a bearing expert but I believe the roller bearings "claim to fame" are their ability to carry high radial and axial loads, usually higher than ball bearings of a similar size primarily due to their increased surface area compared to a ball bearing...

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 10:46 PM
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I'm not a bearing expert but I believe the roller bearings "claim to fame" are their ability to carry high radial and axial loads, usually higher than ball bearings of a similar size primarily due to their increased surface area compared to a ball bearing...
I believe that. Makes them great for wheel bearings that carry a lot of weight and go round round real fast. I'm not "knocking" folks installing them, but I not sure Honda messed up at all by changing and going to ball bearings for the stem. Only advantage of the tapered I have ever heard is tightening them enough eliminates the decel "wobble". Hanging on to the bars lightly with one hand does too. I'm glad many are pleased with them.

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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 10:48 AM
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My 2015 F6B developed a very loud "CLACK" in the front end with about 4500 miles on it. After going through many steps to find the noise it ended up being the front stem bearing were really loose. Tearing into the bike I found both stem nuts finger tight and lots of "black dust" from the surfaces fretting against each other. At first I was going to just tighten the bearings back up and go on but i'm glad I decided to take it futher and replace them because the lower ball bearing had tiny little "dents" knocked in the races. There is the problem with the ball bearings, if they are tight they are very good at their job but if loose they can be easily damaged because the load is transferred via a small contact area. Also I had no issues tightening the All Balls tapered bearings to the recommend torque of 28 lbs.

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 12:01 PM
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My 2009 had that loud clack when hitting a certain kind of bump... In my case, the upper bridge nut was only finger tight rather than being torqued to the required 76 lb ft... Kind of scary!!!

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