Torque wrench question - Page 3 - GL1800Riders
 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 06:22 PM
Seasoned Member
 
Farmguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SW Ont Can
Posts: 3,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAWing View Post
Real men don't need no stinkin torque wrench. Just use the German torque method.....goot-n-tight.
Okay that's my last for today.
Tighten it til it breaks, then back it off a 1/4 turn.
CAWing likes this.

Farmguy - 14 ABS Candy Red
Farmgal - 14 ABS Candy Red

Farmguy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 08:31 PM
Seasoned Member
 
ssncob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Crossville TN
Posts: 6,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyhound View Post
I today checked torque on the swingarm bearings following the procedure posted by Larry Price in the "How To" forum and steps outlined in the Honda shop manual. My '02 has about 80k miles. Torquing the left side to 25 ft lbs resulted in an additional 1/8 turn from original position; none on the right.

My question is: does ambient air temp come into play when reading torque? I'm wondering if the 32 degree temp in my garage would have effected torque reading on the pivot bolts. Lock nut torque would not appear to be nearly as important.

How about it torque experts? Is ambient temp an issue to consider?

While 32F isn't ideal for working in - won't effect your wrench. For the most part - if you're able to withstand the temp you're working in - the wrench will be fine. As a general note - unless the torqueing procedure lists a specific sequence to use - the torque value listed is considered to be the final applied torque. So if an extension needs to be used, such as a crow's foot attachment, then the attachment either needs to be used at a 90 angle on the end of the wrench (so there is zero compensation required) or the additional length of the attachment needs to be factored in the applied torque.


So - for an example - if using a 20 inch wrench and the middle of the attachment extends 2 inches - then you have 20/22= 0.91 -- so if the torque value required is 80 lbf-ft (ftlb), then with the attachment on you would set your torque wrench to 80 x 0.91 = 72.8 (73) lbf-ft (ftlb).

As an aside note - I have yet to find the right side to move when re-torqueing. The left side inner axle nut seems to tighten 1/8 to max of 1/4 turn, 1/8 being most common.

Hope this clears up some confusion.
.

Double Darksider #847
IBA #54767 BB1500+
Patriot Guard
Who I was yesterday is but a past memory, who I will be tomorrow is in the future. Who I am now and the type of person I am to others, that is what is important now.

Last edited by ssncob; 01-10-2017 at 08:35 PM.
ssncob is offline  
post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
Seasoned Member
 
greyhound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Longmeadow, MA
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmguy View Post
You don't need to be worried about the 32F.

But I'm curious why you didn't pick a nicer day.


LOL. Garage logistics today were favorable. Wife was away with her car and I just wanted to get that procedure taken care of before her return. With neither her car or mine in there with the GW, I have lots of room to place things where I want them to work on the GW. Not so when her car is there and she's not too 'flexible" about me taking over "her space"... even for short periods of time..

greyhound
2002 Illusion Blue

No one on their death bed ever said "I wish I had spent more time at work".
greyhound is offline  
 
post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
Seasoned Member
 
greyhound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Longmeadow, MA
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssncob View Post
While 32F isn't ideal for working in - won't effect your wrench. For the most part - if you're able to withstand the temp you're working in - the wrench will be fine. As a general note - unless the torqueing procedure lists a specific sequence to use - the torque value listed is considered to be the final applied torque. So if an extension needs to be used, such as a crow's foot attachment, then the attachment either needs to be used at a 90 angle on the end of the wrench (so there is zero compensation required) or the additional length of the attachment needs to be factored in the applied torque.


So - for an example - if using a 20 inch wrench and the middle of the attachment extends 2 inches - then you have 20/22= 0.91 -- so if the torque value required is 80 lbf-ft (ftlb), then with the attachment on you would set your torque wrench to 80 x 0.91 = 72.8 (73) lbf-ft (ftlb).

As an aside note - I have yet to find the right side to move when re-torqueing. The left side inner axle nut seems to tighten 1/8 to max of 1/4 turn, 1/8 being most common.

Hope this clears up some confusion.
.
ok; thanks. I was thinking more about temp effect on the getting an accurate torque application on the cold bearing and grease vs. temp effect on the wrench itself. Looks like I'm ok anyway. You obviously have way more knowledge about "torque wrench theory" than I. And out of curiosity, am I correct in assuming that your screen name SSNCOB stands for your prior life as chief-of-boat on a fast attack nuclear sub?

greyhound
2002 Illusion Blue

No one on their death bed ever said "I wish I had spent more time at work".
greyhound is offline  
post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-10-2017, 10:52 PM
Seasoned Member
 
ssncob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Crossville TN
Posts: 6,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyhound View Post
ok; thanks. I was thinking more about temp effect on the getting an accurate torque application on the cold bearing and grease vs. temp effect on the wrench itself. Looks like I'm ok anyway. You obviously have way more knowledge about "torque wrench theory" than I. And out of curiosity, am I correct in assuming that your screen name SSNCOB stands for your prior life as chief-of-boat on a fast attack nuclear sub?

Grease and/or cold bearing effect - negligible at 32F. Now checking it at -32F with a low torque value - then you'll have a bit of an effect with cheap grease that has hardened and solidified. But you usually see that with wax or paraffin based grease. Most greases in use nowadays have a synthetic base that is fairly stable over a pretty wide range of temps. There are cold climate and hi-temp application formulas, but for what our bikes use - standard is fine.


And yes - used to be a Chief Of the Boat on fast attack, and also boomers (missile sub). And Air Station CMC, and Recruiting CMC, and ...
.

Double Darksider #847
IBA #54767 BB1500+
Patriot Guard
Who I was yesterday is but a past memory, who I will be tomorrow is in the future. Who I am now and the type of person I am to others, that is what is important now.
ssncob is offline  
post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 07:47 AM
Seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Independence Ohio
Posts: 19,602
Nice explanation Farmguy. I had always been confused at why Honda wanted a beam type used. The lack of ratcheting is undoubtedly the reason. The calibration of the wrench has nothing to do with it. I wish Honda would point out the need to compensate for the adapter length instead of specifying a 20" wrench only, and let people do the calculations themselves. Do they really think that shops are going to buy additional torque wrenches just for doing this rarely performed alignment?

Then again, most Honda mechanics can't even figure out that the number of screws they put back in should be equal to the number they took out when doing repairs, so maybe doing conversions isn't such a good idea for them.

Larry
2002 Illusion Blue GL1800
LarryM is offline  
post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
Seasoned Member
 
greyhound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Longmeadow, MA
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryM View Post
Nice explanation Farmguy. I had always been confused at why Honda wanted a beam type used. The lack of ratcheting is undoubtedly the reason. The calibration of the wrench has nothing to do with it. I wish Honda would point out the need to compensate for the adapter length instead of specifying a 20" wrench only, and let people do the calculations themselves. Do they really think that shops are going to buy additional torque wrenches just for doing this rarely performed alignment?

Then again, most Honda mechanics can't even figure out that the number of screws they put back in should be equal to the number they took out when doing repairs, so maybe doing conversions isn't such a good idea for them.

They sort of do. In my shop manual, the lock nut torque specified value is set forth as both "indicated: 72 lbf ft" and "actual: 80 lbf ft".

greyhound
2002 Illusion Blue

No one on their death bed ever said "I wish I had spent more time at work".
greyhound is offline  
post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 09:02 AM
Seasoned Member
 
bbalzer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Bartlesville, Oklahoma
Posts: 1,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by greyhound View Post
They sort of do. In my shop manual, the lock nut torque specified value is set forth as both "indicated: 72 lbf ft" and "actual: 80 lbf ft".
Agree. My 2012 manual doesn't specify a "type" of torque wrench. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how long or short it is either. What matters is that you have a really basic understanding of angles and leverage. Seriously, if one doesn't understand how this works, they shouldn't be trying to do this. The one link above that went to a torque website had good pictures to explain. If the end of the torque wrench is attached in the very center of the pivot, but farther out like ssncob pointed out but several inches out like with this tool, the torque wrench will show a lower value (72) even though the actual nut/bolt is getting torqued to a higher value (80). A fixed head torque wrench doesn't solve the issue if the user doesn't "have a clue" and attaches it at a 90deg angle off..

2012 Level 2
Michelin ZP rear tire
Centramatics, Traxxion AK20s and Triple Tree WindBender w/rake
Hannigan GL Trailer
2016 Rollahome Camper
bbalzer is offline  
post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 10:09 AM
Seasoned Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Independence Ohio
Posts: 19,602
It's obvious that the manuals have changed on this procedure over the years.

I don't agree that you should stay away from this task if you can't do it without the manual spelling it out. Someone who works with torque wrenches every day will recognize the need to compensate for an offset adapter right away. But for the weekend mechanic, even if they know better, and do understand angles and leverage, it is still helpful to have the manual turn on the light bulb so to speak, in order to remind you of the unusual circumstance. This is not something people come across very often.

Analogy: When I first got into electronics, it was a pain to remember to put on my ESD wrist strap and heel straps. It took me a long time to get in the habit, and I often got in a lot of trouble. But now, every time I approach any kind of workbench, I instinctively grab my wrist to see if my strap is on, even if it has nothing to do with electronics.

A good service manual is more than just procedures. Whenever something veers from the norm, it should be explained. I have been using torque wrenches for 40 years. This is the first time I ever had to deal with an offset adapter in my life.

Larry
2002 Illusion Blue GL1800

Last edited by LarryM; 01-11-2017 at 10:23 AM.
LarryM is offline  
post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 01-11-2017, 10:43 AM
Seasoned Member
 
Shooter F6B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hillsboro MO
Posts: 594
Seriously , by the time you guys get thru with this everyone will be so confused they will just use the "foot n tight" method. Now we are worried about temp?? In my 30 years on the job I guess I've just been lucky. Never had any kind of failure due to improper torque. I own three torque wrenches. 1/4 inch drive in NM. and inch pounds , 3/8 drive in ft lbs and 1/2 inch drive in ft lbs. All are Snap On. I have the calibration checked yearly. I think I'm gonna buy about 10 more so I'll have all the lengths. So what am I gonna do when I do cylinder heads and they call for 15 ft lbs. Then 45 ft lbs then an additional 30. Which wrench do I use then? You guys have had me thinking though. Last night I was reading in a "professional" torque manual and it made the statement that if I used an extension it wouldn't change torque value. So whoever authored that manual has never seen how much a 10 inch extension flexes on 65 ft lbs of torque. I think I'll keep doing what I've been doing all my life. At 58 yrs old it seems to work. You can over think anything. I've seen guys like that. By the time they over think it and obsess over it they usually screw it up. I set my torque wrench to the desired value and depend on it to do the job. I always use the shortest socket possible , if I use a crowfoot its at a 90 angle to the wrench and if I have to use a long extension at a heavy torque value I compensate a little within reason. So far its been working.
Shooter F6B is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the GL1800Riders forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome