Stumble on 2014 and newer goldwings - Page 3 - GL1800Riders
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post #21 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-11-2016, 12:08 PM
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Lewis was adamant that his enhancer does not interfere with the signal from the IAT sensor once the engine is in closed loop.
I asked him how that was possible. I didn't get an engineering type answer that made sense to me. He kept reiterating that at steady throttle the IAT signal will not be adjusted by his enhancer.

It seems to me that since the IAT output signal to the ECM is a constant signal regardless of open or closed loop, the ECM would always get an adjusted signal from the IAT.
Or, does the ECM ignore the IAT signal once in closed loop?
Anyone know?
Your last statement is correct, the ECM ignores the IAT once in closed loop. (bike can't start in closed loop because the O2 sensor in the exhaust that provides the closed loop feedback has to be around 600 degrees before it works...this is why open loop is needed until the bike gets warm). As such, Lewis absolutely correct that his device won't affect the bike when in closed loop. It only makes it more rich when in open loop.

Lewis' device is not a bad option IMO...it does work and being a bit rich in all throttle openings for a bit until it moves to closed loop isn't a horrible thing. But... it does have the entire throttle range running a bit rich for the first few miles of a ride and over time, that's probably not ideal IMO. As such, I prefer the reflash solution. (but it does cost more and is quite a bit harder to get done so I can see why someone would opt for Lewis' solution)

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Last edited by 2WheelNut; 07-11-2016 at 12:15 PM.
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post #22 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-11-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 2WheelNut View Post
Your last statement is correct, the ECM ignores the IAT once in closed loop. (bike can't start in closed loop because the O2 sensor in the exhaust that provides the closed loop feedback has to be around 600 degrees before it works...this is why open loop is needed until the bike gets warm). As such, Lewis absolutely correct that his device won't affect the bike when in closed loop. It only makes it more rich when in open loop.
That makes sense.
If only Lewis had explained to me the actual operation of his enhancer just like you did, that the IAT signal is ignored in closed loop by the ECM, then I would have likely kept the enhancer installed. I would let the enhancer do its thing when the engine was cold, and then I'd turn the enrichment off. Lewis said that was likely the reason it was throwing an FI code. My thinking was the enhancer was always on-line and running the engine too rich.

I agree that the best way to get rid of the stumble is the Guhl reflash.
Unfortunately for me, the cost of that, being in Canada, is ridiculous. I just live with the stumble. I had stated before that the stumble was actually gone after removing the enhancer. The ECM obviously remembers and learns. After a few weeks the stumble gradually returned. Now, after about a month, it's back to where it was pre-enhancer, which is to the PITA level.

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post #23 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-11-2016, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 2WheelNut View Post
Correct.

Or at a minimum, they don't stumble because of the leaning of the ECM that was done in 2012 and what some might perceive as a stumble on the pre-2012 is not the same stumble as the 2012 and later ones.

Personally, I've never felt a stumble on a pre 2012 and I've ridden a few of them.

I believe EVERY 2012-2104 (and possibly 15/16 depending on if Honda fixed the mapping) will exhibit the stumble given the right circumstances.
okay. Thanks for the clarification. However, this forum is filled with posts from guys complaining about their pre-2012 Goldwings that "stumble". I guess their stumble is different.
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Last edited by SteelTraveler; 07-11-2016 at 12:58 PM.
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post #24 of 56 (permalink) Old 07-11-2016, 04:18 PM
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okay. Thanks for the clarification. However, this forum is filled with posts from guys complaining about their pre-2012 Goldwings that "stumble". I guess their stumble is different.
Agreed....when you have a condition as loosely defined as a "stumble", I'm sure there are many people with a different definition as to what that is.

Having said that....the "stumble" that I'm speaking of really became known and discussed with the 2012 model and it's definitely the ECM mapping. My basis for saying it's DEFINITELY the ECM mapping is that Fred Harmon posted that he had worked with Guhl and directly compared the pre and post 2012 ECM's and there is a definite leaning in the map of the post 2012 ECM that corresponds directly with the RPM ranges the stumble manifests itself in. That being the case, it makes total sense that the bike would stumble there so we had the proverbial "smoking gun".

(of course...if Fred was wrong, then I'm wrong too....but I do tend to trust him....he's not one to misrepresent the truth so I have high confidence in his testing and conclusion)
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2013 Honda GL1800 ABS
2007 Suzuki GSXR 600 (Track)
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post #25 of 56 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 12:06 PM
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I have a 2014 that started stumbling earlier this year after doing Beartooth Pass ride at High Altitude. Not bad gas. Has been in Honda Dealer ship twice for this issue ( still under warranty). 1st time new fuel pump, but did not fix the problem. second time (still there for last 3 weeks) even after bring in what they called "District Tech". They tried another fuel pump, now awaiting fuel pressure regulator. I'm planning on picking up the bike this Friday and ride it like with the stumble. What else can I do? Clearly Honda and techs don't have any idea what to do.

Stumble started at about 52k miles I have put 5k miles on bike with stumble. Stumble has not gotten worse.

The stumble is slight when I roll on the throttle lightly/normally when shifting from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, etc. a flat spot at about 1700 to 2000 RPM. Hot or cold make no difference.

Reading many other articles, I cannot find a definitive problem and solution.

Honda dealer says valve adj overdue and want to try that - over $700 maint item. If they would guarantee this would fix it, I would pay the $$, however, I doubt seriously this has anything to do with the problem.

Any IDeas?

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post #26 of 56 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 03:07 PM
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How long since the last set of plugs?

Both our 14's only stumble when cold. When it does it it feels like improperly set manual choke.

We usually warm up engines while putting on gear -- and don't experience any stumble.
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post #27 of 56 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bwhittaker View Post
I have a 2014 that started stumbling earlier this year after doing Beartooth Pass ride at High Altitude. Not bad gas. Has been in Honda Dealer ship twice for this issue ( still under warranty). 1st time new fuel pump, but did not fix the problem. second time (still there for last 3 weeks) even after bring in what they called "District Tech". They tried another fuel pump, now awaiting fuel pressure regulator. I'm planning on picking up the bike this Friday and ride it like with the stumble. What else can I do? Clearly Honda and techs don't have any idea what to do.

Stumble started at about 52k miles I have put 5k miles on bike with stumble. Stumble has not gotten worse.

The stumble is slight when I roll on the throttle lightly/normally when shifting from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, etc. a flat spot at about 1700 to 2000 RPM. Hot or cold make no difference.

Reading many other articles, I cannot find a definitive problem and solution.

Honda dealer says valve adj overdue and want to try that - over $700 maint item. If they would guarantee this would fix it, I would pay the $$, however, I doubt seriously this has anything to do with the problem.

Any IDeas?

Semper Fi
If it does it only in the first mile or so of a ride and then not again until after you've stopped for a least 10-15 minutes, then it may be the stumble that is related to the leaning of the ECM and the Guhl reflash could fix it.

If, however, it does it all the time and even after the bike has been running for several miles and the exhaust would be at full temp where it had moved to closed loop FI, then it's very likely not the same issue that is common unless you have a bad O2 sensor in your exhaust and therefore the bike never really goes to closed loop.

I do not think a valve adjustment will fix your problem. (and $700 is pretty ridiculous for it...I can see about 1/3 of that as reasonable as it probably would take a skilled tech a couple hours to do and the bike has to be stored overnight so the check can be done cold....but $700 is just ridiculous)

Current Stable:
2016 KTM Super Duke GT
2015 Honda Grom
2015 Yamaha FZ-09
2013 Honda GL1800 ABS
2007 Suzuki GSXR 600 (Track)
2004 Suzuki GSXR 750 (Track)

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post #28 of 56 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 03:41 PM
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anybody have a link handy to complain?
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/
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post #29 of 56 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 09:24 PM
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I run only non-ethenol fuel and can count on the prolonged stumble if I don't warm up.

To help your outlook, remember Who's looking out for you.

Be nice, the more you do it the easier it gets.
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post #30 of 56 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Farmguy View Post
How long since the last set of plugs?

Both our 14's only stumble when cold. When it does it it feels like improperly set manual choke.

We usually warm up engines while putting on gear -- and don't experience any stumble.
This was also my experience with the 92 GL15 and its the same with my 2014 GL18 . I thought it also happened when first restarting even when the engine is warm when I hopped on and immediately took off, but that was a one time thing. If I warm it up, it does not happen.
Seems crazy to have this issue with electronic fuel injection.

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