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Cornering body position on a goldwing?

14K views 49 replies 29 participants last post by  yellow_wolf 
#1 ·
Hi, I was trying to find a cornering body position video, using the goldwing. All I can find is videos using sports bikes. Anyone know of an instructional video using the goldwing? Not just videos of goldwing in corners, but a video describing body position on the goldwing.

Thanks

On a side note, do you peg scrapers follow these guidelines in this video(lean body towards turn) or do you lean your body away from the turn, in order to lean the bike over farther?

 
#27 ·
Two different styles, Rossi weights his peg, Lorenzo doesn't

 
#28 ·
I wasn't clear enough, sorry Chris. I have a hard time with that pic to even tell how much pressure they are weighting the outside peg. To exaggerate weighting the inside peg, do yo have any pics where you can see that there is no weight on the outside peg. Maybe one where someone is just about to lowside and the outside foot is off clearly off? I think a pic like demonstrates how the pegs were weighted prior to getting into a lowside condition.
 
#29 ·
Like this?

 
#30 ·
Everything being equal, getting your body off the bike will facilitate a faster turn and less chance of dragging parts and losing traction. As for which peg to weight, on a sportbike your leg should be gripping the tank which will allow you to unweight either peg if needed. Dookoo is absolutely correct in his analysis of proper body position in a turn. Unfortunately, due to the weight and ergonomics of the Goldwing, doing so requires extra effort by the rider...
 
#32 ·
Another rider hanging off question. Wings are heavy, very heavy compared to sport bikes. How much does it help hanging off, if you are a very light rider? Would a heavy rider have some advantage, i.e. moving the center of gravity more than would a lightweight rider?

This a great thread!
The advantage has nothing to do with rider weight, but more with the lean angle of the bike. The heavier and bigger the bike, the more effort it takes to lean off and keep the bike more vertical...rider weight is not as significant. I've seen 200 lb. guys throw a sportbike around a turn as well as a 120 lb. lightweight.
 
#33 ·
Recently, in another thread, we all were pretty much on the same page that it takes very little effort to turn a bike with countersteering. In the sportbike world, most of our top jockeys are small in stature. This obviously gives a power to weight ratio advantage and many bigger riders proposed combined weight minimums to even the field (I.E. a very small rider may have to add weight to his bike to make the minimum weight requirement). But this train of thought has been shot down time after time as not to penalize one for their natural build. It would like having to strap lead weights to horse jockeys because they are 'too small'. The male drivers even tried this with Danica Patrick in Indy cars. I'm not a big guy (5-9/185) and throwing the Wing around takes no more effort for me on the track as my sportbike. Only in slow speed maneuvers do I have to work a little harder with the Wing throwing the bike from side to side and physically turning the bars from lock to lock fast and hard. So when going fast on my Wing, my legs get a good workout shifting my weight from peg to peg. When going slower, it seems my upper body works harder. The faster I want to go, the more I try to keep the bike as upright as possible. The slower I go, the more I try to exaggerate the lean and lock to lock steering to make quicker/tighter turns. The best way I can describe riding the Wing fast would to be as 'efficient' as possible. The less you have to physically move the heavyweight from side to side by hanging off and keeping the bike more upright, the less work you do. Now nothing uses less energy than sitting upright so that's a nice feeling too, albeit, you will scrape more.
 
#35 ·
Recently, in another thread, we all were pretty much on the same page that it takes very little effort to turn a bike with countersteering. In the sportbike world, most of our top jockeys are small in stature. This obviously gives a power to weight ratio advantage and many bigger riders proposed combined weight minimums to even the field (I.E. a very small rider may have to add weight to his bike to make the minimum weight requirement). But this train of thought has been shot down time after time as not to penalize one for their natural build. It would like having to strap lead weights to horse jockeys because they are 'too small'. The male drivers even tried this with Danica Patrick in Indy cars. I'm not a big guy (5-9/185) and throwing the Wing around takes no more effort for me on the track as my sportbike. Only in slow speed maneuvers do I have to work a little harder with the Wing throwing the bike from side to side and physically turning the bars from lock to lock fast and hard. So when going fast on my Wing, my legs get a good workout shifting my weight from peg to peg. When going slower, it seems my upper body works harder. The faster I want to go, the more I try to keep the bike as upright as possible. The slower I go, the more I try to exaggerate the lean and lock to lock steering to make quicker/tighter turns. The best way I can describe riding the Wing fast would to be as 'efficient' as possible. The less you have to physically move the heavyweight from side to side by hanging off and keeping the bike more upright, the less work you do. Now nothing uses less energy than sitting upright so that's a nice feeling too, albeit, you will scrape more.
Totally agree that rider weight (or lack thereof) equates to an advantage on the track. However, I haven't tracked a 'Wing (yet), but I have to believe it takes more effort than railing a 600 for the same reason. Technique can certainly make up some of the difference...
 
#36 ·
Totally agree that rider weight (or lack thereof) equates to an advantage on the track. However, I haven't tracked a 'Wing (yet), but I have to believe it takes more effort than railing a 600 for the same reason. Technique can certainly make up some of the difference...
I know, it doesn't seem to add up but when my friends and I have a trackday, we usually ride our Wings for the last few sessions. It's at this point that I am reminded these beasts are made for eating up the miles. Our once tired and sore bodies are having fun again on the track with the Wing, pampered in comfort, smoothness, and wind protection. DKF (the other Wing rider in my Laguna Seca & Buttonwillow track video) has back and neck problems from his military service (retired) and when his body tells him no more on his sportbikes, he jumps on the Wing and can ride out the rest of the day. Check him out, because of his injuries, he does not hang off and rides upright. He's no slouch on the track either. Right now, DKF is settling a grudge match with an ST1300 LEO. The ST1300 rider thinks he can outbrake the Wing on a 40 mph decel and he says the Wing cannot make it through the Eliminator and 180 police course. We laugh because we know that the Wing outstops the ST by about 4' and DKF has done the course several times. Yes, the Wing will outstop any police ST1300, Connie, BMW, or HD 60 mph to zero! Both of our ADV's are disabled. The Wing has a wide butt and can still make it through all but the tightest police cone patterns. DKF is a civilian and the LEO's won't let him compete in the Police compssaying he has to be a current or retired motorcycle LEO. Actually, his LEO friends have been trying to get him in but it is the upper echelon of the rank and file that has prevented him from competing every time.
 
#37 ·
Joe,

This doesn't need to be a theoretical discussion.


  • Go out and ride your bike.
  • Relax your vision to be sure you can see both your bike windshield and the road in front of the bike.
  • Leave your hips on the seat and just lean your upper body forward and left. The phrase "kiss the mirror" comes to mind.
  • You should be able to see THE BIKE lean a bit right.
  • (That's all leaning in does.)
  • The bike HAS to lean that way to counter balance your movement.

If you did this just before entering a left turn, you would have a few "extra" degrees of lean angle.
 
#38 ·
I know, it doesn't seem to add up but when my friends and I have a trackday, we usually ride our Wings for the last few sessions. It's at this point that I am reminded these beasts are made for eating up the miles. Our once tired and sore bodies are having fun again on the track with the Wing, pampered in comfort, smoothness, and wind protection. DKF (the other Wing rider in my Laguna Seca & Buttonwillow track video) has back and neck problems from his military service (retired) and when his body tells him no more on his sportbikes, he jumps on the Wing and can ride out the rest of the day. Check him out, because of his injuries, he does not hang off and rides upright. He's no slouch on the track either. Right now, DKF is settling a grudge match with an ST1300 LEO. The ST1300 rider thinks he can outbrake the Wing on a 40 mph decel and he says the Wing cannot make it through the Eliminator and 180 police course. We laugh because we know that the Wing outstops the ST by about 4' and DKF has done the course several times. Yes, the Wing will outstop any police ST1300, Connie, BMW, or HD 60 mph to zero! Both of our ADV's are disabled. The Wing has a wide butt and can still make it through all but the tightest police cone patterns. DKF is a civilian and the LEO's won't let him compete in the Police compssaying he has to be a current or retired motorcycle LEO. Actually, his LEO friends have been trying to get him in but it is the upper echelon of the rank and file that has prevented him from competing every time.
Wow interesting I might question your braking statements. AT BEST the wings brakes are just adaquate. Most BMW models are lighter and have the better stopping Brembo brakes. And it would seem the much lighter weight of a ST1300 would stop much faster than the 900lb wing.
 
#39 ·
Wow interesting I might question your braking statements. AT BEST the wings brakes are just adaquate. Most BMW models are lighter and have the better stopping Brembo brakes. And it would seem the much lighter weight of a ST1300 would stop much faster than the 900lb wing.

DKF and I, out of coincidence, have lots of motor cop friends due to our affiliation with safety training, motorcycle community, and trackdays. We, DKF mostly, ride with them and go to their training sessions all the time as California's top two LEO riders, Eddie Chan S.J. PD and Quinn Rediker Ventura PD (Google them) are good friends and close by. The Goldwing has smooth and amazing brakes. Yes, the Goldwing does outstop police trim HD's, BMW's, Connies, Victory's, and ST's each and every time from 60-0. We've both made a healthy income from disbelieving wagers. BMW does have Brembo calipers, but their antilock system is a generation or two behind Honda's unit. Honda's ABS is the most transparent of all of them. You can't feel or hear them working. Why the Wing can outstop the ST, they are both Honda, I cannot answer. I believe the weight difference between a police trim ST (radio, crash bars, radar, etc) is near 150 lbs. You really appreciate the Wing's braking system when you do a trackday. It is one finger braking for me all day and I only use the front brakes! I am a firm believer in the OEM brake pads. They cost the most, but work the best for my purposes. DKF runs Galfers.
 
#40 ·
Wow interesting I might question your braking statements. AT BEST the wings brakes are just adaquate. Most BMW models are lighter and have the better stopping Brembo brakes. And it would seem the much lighter weight of a ST1300 would stop much faster than the 900lb wing.
Why you feel the wing's brakes are just adequate at best? I think the 1800 has a fantastic set of binders!
 
#41 ·
out of position

the best position for hard cornering on the wing is basically seated in a neutral position, maybe slightly forward....leaning or hanging off the bike is a bad habit that will put a rider out of position to react to obstacles....vision is number one....look as far ahead as possible, know what's coming and then just apply counter steering pressure on the bars to fall into a turn, keep body in comfortable ,neutral position.....you will grind off the pegs and exhaust tip just sitting normally....it will track around a curve like it's on rails....be in a position that gives you the best and quickest reaction response....rather than searching a position that makes the bike turn better....these rears have less than 5000 miles on them...no weird hanging off the bike or leaning involved.
 

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#42 ·
Why the Wing can outstop the ST, they are both Honda, I cannot answer.
Theorizing... No evidence to support this claim at all.

The fact that the wing weighs more than the ST could actually be an advantage here. While the weight contributes to the total momentum of the wing, and therefor the amount of energy required to stop it, the weight also contributes to the amount of friction between the tire and the riding surface, which could mean that more stopping force could be applied before the tire begins to skid.

The size of the contact patch, the way that weight is transferred while stopping because of bike geometry will all come into play here.
 
#43 ·
the best position for hard cornering on the wing is basically seated in a neutral position, maybe slightly forward....leaning or hanging off the bike is a bad habit that will put a rider out of position to react to obstacles....vision is number one....look as far ahead as possible, know what's coming and then just apply counter steering pressure on the bars to fall into a turn, keep body in comfortable ,neutral position.....you will grind off the pegs and exhaust tip just sitting normally....it will track around a curve like it's on rails....be in a position that gives you the best and quickest reaction response....rather than searching a position that makes the bike turn better....these rears have less than 5000 miles on them...no weird hanging off the bike or leaning involved.
I'm curious how you have arrived at this conclusion. Every major training program that I have known anything about have all promoted the use of body positioning for advanced riders to provide reduced lean angle. Increased lean angle from a neutral body position does not provide as much reduction in lean angle as the use of body positioning. I would certainly say that a neutral position is better than a straight up position with the bike leaning. But the use of body positioning clearly lowers the center of gravity and provides less reduction in lean angle. Also the reduction of lean angle does limit the chance of grinding pegs and exhaust tips. I'm not sure how the picture of your tires is significant though.
 
#44 ·
Cornering

As you approach a turn from the outside of your lane consider staying on the outside of the lane until the Apex Point of the turn. If you can see the double yellow line in center of your left rear mirror you are too far to the left. As you go into the turn consider being on your toes or balls of your feet. Lift or slide your turn side buttox check to the turn side of you motorcycle seat. Or, as you turn move your opposite side buttox to the side of the turn, relax and flex the arm on the side of the turn, lean your head forward and into the turn. Your turn side shoulder moves forward and level/ up into the turn. Let you turn side knee rotate outward. Allow your head to move to the turn side of your windshield towards the turn side turn signal. Look through the turn with your turn side shoulder up and leaning forward. As you do this your turn side elbow will bend or flex. Do not forget to continue to counter steer. In Down hill turns consider using your front brake to slow down if needed. In Uphill Turns use deceleration or your rear brake if needed to slow.


Think of being on your toes and moving your opposite buttox check to the turn side of your seat. Thus, rotating your body forward and leaning your head into the turn. When you hit the Apex Point of the turn it will appear as if the road is now straight. This is the ideal time to accelerate. The bike will seem to almost jump out of the turn. Now it is time to get ready for the next turn.


This takes some time to perfect. Consider starting slow. First, just try swing your turn side knee out and leaning your head/body into the turn. Then, add the buttox move to the outward knee and leaning head. Eventually, you will begin to think and position your body like a reflex. Please remember to watch your lines and do not cross the double yellow line.


So, why do we not perform this act easily. Because when we road bicycles or dirt bikes we could man handle the bike to get it go in the direction we desired. By centering our body we could out leverage the device. You cannot out leverage a 1,000 pound motorcycle. You have to go with it and the effects of gravity.


Give it a try. I think you will be surprised how well it works. Hope this helps. Best,


DOC
:thumbup::thumbup:
 
#45 ·
I'm curious how you have arrived at this conclusion. Every major training program that I have known anything about have all promoted the use of body positioning for advanced riders to provide reduced lean angle. Increased lean angle from a neutral body position does not provide as much reduction in lean angle as the use of body positioning. I would certainly say that a neutral position is better than a straight up position with the bike leaning. But the use of body positioning clearly lowers the center of gravity and provides less reduction in lean angle. Also the reduction of lean angle does limit the chance of grinding pegs and exhaust tips. I'm not sure how the picture of your tires is significant though.
I believe that what snowmark is talking about is the difference in "safe" open street riding vs. riding in a controlled environment (trackday) limitations.

If you are commonly riding at full inside body position, full scrape on the open street, where animals, pedestrians, other riders, and cars may at any second enter from any possible direction, you're probably pushing a bit hard to be "safe". Riding and full inside body position, full scrape on the track, where interruptions of normal street riding are not as common still has some risk, but most people who are on the track assume that there is some risk, and it's just you and your fellow track riders (not the general public).

I would actually argue that getting to full inside body position, and less than full scrape is safer than neutral body position and full scrape in most open street situations. Having an aggressive body position, but less lean angle on the bike allows you to adjust either direction, as well as provides a larger contact patch, and normally more traction. Being at full scrape and neutral body position puts the bike on the edge of traction, as well as not allowing you to turn any "tighter", as you would be pulling a wheel off the ground. Of course, riding in neutral body position, and not scraping anything is safer than either of the other options.
 
#46 ·
I believe that what snowmark is talking about is the difference in "safe" open street riding vs. riding in a controlled environment (trackday) limitations.

I would actually argue that getting to full inside body position, and less than full scrape is safer than neutral body position and full scrape in most open street situations. Having an aggressive body position, but less lean angle on the bike allows you to adjust either direction, as well as provides a larger contact patch, and normally more traction. Being at full scrape and neutral body position puts the bike on the edge of traction, as well as not allowing you to turn any "tighter", as you would be pulling a wheel off the ground. Of course, riding in neutral body position, and not scraping anything is safer than either of the other options.
I'm with you for the most part, except that I would argue that an appropriate amount of body positioning for a given speed is the safest option. One does not have to fully hang off the bike if the speed and the curve do not require it. But even minor to moderate amounts of positioning will change the CG enough to stabilize the bike in the curve. It's all relative to speed and to the curve as well as road conditions. Like Dookoo, I've been doing it for so long that to not do it now on any curve feels makes the bike feel unstable to me.
 
#47 ·
I'm with you for the most part, except that I would argue that an appropriate amount of body positioning for a given speed is the safest option. One does not have to fully hang off the bike if the speed and the curve do not require it.
Fair enough, and better stated than what I said. I actually don't expect "full hang off" for every possible turn :)
 
#48 ·
wing

some of you are saying you lean your bodies so the bike doesn't have to lean as much?..right there you and the bike are now trying to go in slightly different directions.....lean angle is reduced by taking the straightest line thru a turn...i stay right on the bike, neutral, relaxed, when it leans I am right with it....you can scrape everything that scrapes without leaning off the bike at all, yes the bike leans and you go with it....chest over the gas cap is where you have most control, balls of the feet on the pegs so you can be ready for whatever....i ride at least 100 miles of Colorado canyon a day...the bike will cut an extremely hard curve with a simple push on the bars and will be easily scraping peg without any change in rider position, why lean off the bike? Staying completely relaxed so you can feel what the tires are doing, looking ahead to plan the best line will do more to increase you cornering abilities...i guess i have never felt the need to hang off the bike.....it rides like it's on rails just sitting on it. I show the tires cause I know what it takes to waste an E3 in less than 5000 miles and you don't need to hang off the bike....besides look at any road racer....always in position , body over the tank....may kick a knee out at 130 mph in a hairpin but our bikes are grinding long before that point.
 
#49 ·
Check out Lee Park's Total Control. While a Wing rider on the street, may not hang off to the same degree that a racer riding a track on a sport bike might, the same principals still apply.

I have found implementing those principals in moderation have made me much more comfortable, confident, safer and a bit quicker in turns.

Hector
 
#50 ·
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