GL1800Riders Forums banner

Ghost Shifter

6K views 29 replies 8 participants last post by  TiRider 
#1 ·
Just checked in a 2003 with 81k. Cust states ghost shifting started around 60k and then BANG !!! He was able to limp home (3 miles) in 2nd and 3rd. When he started it, lots of grinding and loud noises like rocks are floating in the oil and jamming gears. He gave permission to post comments and pix. He came to have his dogs cut ... the only known fix.

Pix to follow soon.
 
#3 ·
Is that yours? Will this be your 3rd time through this?

Wow ... that is really a lot of damage. I can see 3 broken shift forks, a damaged shift drum, and a shattered gear. Would like to see more:)
 
#4 ·
Is that yours? Will this be your 3rd time through this?

Wow ... that is really a lot of damage. I can see 3 broken shift forks, a damaged shift drum, and a shattered gear. Would like to see more:)

Every piece in the tranny/cases/mains etc are being replaced by Honda.They were aware of the clunk since FEB,it finally let go 3 months ago.Fast the dealer is not!

Only 2nd time.but it will be a new engine this round.
 
#5 ·
This leaves me with a strong urge to sell ...

Only 2nd time.but it will be a new engine this round.
Ok, you win ... before this we were even (case split twice), you are now doing circles around me.

Sorry for your troubles, hope you are whole after this is through.
 
#6 ·
It may not be over. They will send him one machined long ago. It will be date stamped with something like NV 03. His chances are just as likely as when he bought his bike to have a ghost shifting occure one again.
 
#7 ·
It may not be over. They will send him one machined long ago. It will be date stamped with something like NV 03. His chances are just as likely as when he bought his bike to have a ghost shifting occure one again.

Greg.My bike never ghost shifted!
First tranny issue was it downshifted as I was slowing for a corner from 3rd into 2nd.Not the same as down shifting from 5th into 4th at speed!!.

Current tranny issues I suspect was a bad shifter drum?.
It would BANG as I accelerated in 2nd only once "It never grinded-or downshifted!!"

It self destructed due to metal fatigue since first observation back in FEB when I made Honda aware of the wrenches lack of ability to properly diagnose this issue!

That's way HONDA has my back and is giving me a new engine.:thumbup:

Maybe you got inside sources at HONDA that tell you when my new cases were cast.:shrug: I'll let you know later if your crystal ball is correct..lol
 
#8 ·
Greg.My bike never ghost shifted!
First tranny issue was it downshifted as I was slowing for a corner from 3rd into 2nd.Not the same as down shifting from 5th into 4th at speed!!.

Current tranny issues I suspect was a bad shifter drum?.
It would BANG as I accelerated in 2nd only once "It never grinded-or downshifted!!"

It self destructed due to metal fatigue since first observation back in FEB when I made Honda aware of the wrenches lack of ability to properly diagnose this issue!

That's way HONDA has my back and is giving me a new engine.:thumbup:

Maybe you got inside sources at HONDA that tell you when my new cases were cast.:shrug: I'll let you know later if your crystal ball is correct..lol
I don't have a "inside ghost" at Honda telling me when your cases halves and rear cover were machined. But I due hope you get one that operates as intended. Better yet, I hope your motor comes marked with a date in a lanquage that you and I cannot read. To me, your chance of hitting near perfection just sky rocketed.

You are describing ghost shifting. Ghost shifting is when the transmission shifts on it own ... up, down ... acceleration, deceleration. An unintended shift that had nothing to do with the operation of the bike so long as the bike is being operated and maintained per the Owners Manual. Yours is a bit odd in that it shifts on the coast side of the gears, but it shouldn't even then. Assuming all the parts where good when you tranny was first done. That bang fatiged a gear(s) creating stress cracks. Once weakened it/they began to break apart. The damage on the shift drum is from the forks being slammed and forced to move in the worm grove 10x quicker then intended. The broken forks and gears are from a gear(s) breaking up and damaging the others.
 
#9 ·
I don't have a "inside ghost" at Honda telling me when your cases halves and rear cover were machined. But I due hope you get one that operates as intended. Better yet, I hope your motor comes marked with a date in a lanquage that you and I cannot read. To me, your chance of hitting near perfection just sky rocketed.

You are describing ghost shifting. Ghost shifting is when the transmission shifts on it own ... up, down ... acceleration, deceleration. An unintended shift that had nothing to do with the operation of the bike so long as the bike is being operated and maintained per the Owners Manual. Yours is a bit odd in that it shifts on the coast side of the gears, but it shouldn't even then. Assuming all the parts where good when you tranny was first done. That bang fatiged a gear(s) creating stress cracks. Once weakened it/they began to break apart. The damage on the shift drum is from the forks being slammed and forced to move in the worm grove 10x quicker then intended. The broken forks and gears are from a gear(s) breaking up and damaging the others.
Sorry Greg,But what my transmission is/was doing both times is in no way ghost shifting.

Ghost shifting is when you are riding down the highway in 5th gear and it drops into a false neutral as the engine revs,and riders try either to down shift into 4th or back up to fifth.


Transmissions have failed on the 1800 in the past that have had nothing to do with the dreaded fifth gear going out.
Yes more failures have been related to the fifth gear issue,But not all of them are related to the fifth gear issue.

My case is a prime example having two different issues that had nothing to do with fifth gear at all.

It always amazes me how guys try and blame everything on a term called ghost shifting when transmissions fail for different reasons.

There is no such thing as "Yea that's what mine did" concerning engines and transmission failures.
30 years tearing down engines/transmissions taught me that No two failures are alike!
 
#10 ·
I've personally fixed ghost shifting from 2>3, 3>4, 5>4 and 4>3. The 5>4 is the most consistant one as the milage increases on a bike and can be the one most predicatable. 1st gear is the only gear that is never involved. The others are more random. "It randomly shifts like a ghost caused it." Who ever named it that, found a good name for it. But that is just symatics.

What makes it elusive to us GW riders is that it happends 5>4, 4>3, 3>2, 2>3, 3>4, 4>5. So there are 6 conditions but really 12 since it can either slowing the rear tire down or speeding the rear tire up. While doing any of that, it can "hang" in a nuetral position between gears. That is why some are able to pull the clutch in before it goes into another gear or possibly back into the same gear. Often that disrups the ghost shift and causes it back into the gear it came from. In either case all those conditions give a completely different feels to the rider, and depending on the road conditions and angle of the bike at the time, can be very scary and dangerous. All of the above conditions occur on acceleration or on the "power" side of the dogs. My yellow '03 was more likely to do it on the 2>3 but also would do it on the 5>4. Yours is unique because it does it on the coast side of the dogs. I would still call that ghost shifting since it os still doing it without the rider causing it. That then makes 24 conditions .... elusive to any rider. This elusiveness is why so many riders blame their transmission problem on "miss shifting." On a GL1800, miss shifting usually occures on the 1>2 shift while passing through neutral never really getting it in gear. What make ghost shifting different then miss shifting is that the transmission is actually shifted into its intended gear. The rider pulled the clutch in, shifted the foot lever up until it didn't go up anymore. In other words, all feed back from the machine indicating it is in gear is correct.

From a mechanics point of view, there is one other thing common to a ghost shifter. All parts are in spec. Yours may not be now from the damage that has occured. For example, your main shaft or counter shaft may have excessive runout from catastrafic failure (sorry, bad speller). But, if measure prior to that failure, and after the shifting problem started, would have been in spec. The other thing common to ghost shifters, if you put Parisner Blue on the gears looking for uneven mess, uneven wear will not be detected either. You will see what looks like bernelling starting on the gear bushings. But it will be in spec. or would have been prior to catasterfy. Put new ones in, with new gears and shaft, then for fun, tear it back down in 500 miles and the exact same wear will be there. You will not be able to tell a bearing with 60k from one with 500 miles. Also, look at shift spindle A. See the excessive wear. Honda does not supply those bearings without a new case, but you and I know how to get around that and install new ones. If you put new ones in with a new spindle and tear it back down in 500 miles, that wear on the new spindle will already be very noticable. See your shift fork shaft, I see wear, measure it and it will be in spec ... same with the wear showing on your main shaft ... it will all be in spec ... all this is common to ghost shifters. Measure the ID of those shift forks, I'll bet those are in spec too.

Another symptom of ghost shifting is Honda's inability to fix it. Anything that I am saying sounding farmilure here? Hasn't yours failed a second time too, or is this all due to rider error? Or in your case, when you put it in gear, are you getting feed back from your transmission that you really are not in gear?

Anyway, how do your gears, shafts, bearings, and forks measure up, any uneven wear patterns? Maybe yours is different then others !!

In the middle of you pix, under everything is what looks like a shaft pointing at 2:30. Is that a broken fork shaft? I cannot tell.
 
#11 ·
I've personally fixed ghost shifting from 2>3, 3>4, 5>4 and 4>3. The 5>4 is the most consistant one as the milage increases on a bike and can be the one most predicatable. 1st gear is the only gear that is never involved. The others are more random. "It randomly shifts like a ghost caused it." Who ever named it that, found a good name for it. But that is just symatics.
Greg how many tranny's have you rebuilt so far.:shrug:

I have no ides where you got those numbers,becaus I never saw such things in those gears.

When I did my research I found that 95% were 06 up bikes with 5th gear issues.

The other 5% were a mixed bag of symtoms that I took as Owners reall can't describe an issue correctly because it wasn't their line of work diagnosing such failures?

Only ONE bike even came close to what my bike did the first time,and I read of a few that had defective shifter drums that caused similar issues but not exactly what mine did this time around.

See your shift fork shaft, I see wear, measure it and it will be in spec ... same with the wear showing on your main shaft ... it will all be in spec ... all this is common to ghost shifters. Measure the ID of those shift forks, I'll bet those are in spec too.
Greg.I think you are confusing discoloration with actual wera on the shafts..There is none on my parts.You may have seen it in the past,but these parts have none!


Or in your case, when you put it in gear, are you getting feed back from your transmission that you really are not in gear?
Pssst Greg.Remember I was the one who brought this to the wrenches & more importantly "Hondas" attention back in FEB. It's safe to say that I'm familar with the internal workings of engines seeing I made a dam good living rebuilding them for 30 years...lol


Anyway, how do your gears, shafts, bearings, and forks measure up, any uneven wear patterns? Maybe yours is different then others !!
There is no point in trying to disect what wear may or may not be on these gears at this point-They were either destroyed or damaged when second gear came apart and hit these other gears.


In the middle of you pix, under everything is what looks like a shaft pointing at 2:30. Is that a broken fork shaft? I cannot tell.
That is the end of the shifter shaft.it is what took out the case boss in the transmission side of the cases.Hense the reason why new cases are ordered.

Second gear failure took a lot of parts out with it.

Had the Mechanic listened to me back in Feb,the replacementparts list would be minimal.

I had to tell the first idiot who replaced the ACG he had both cams off too.
Once he set the cams right the bike was fine.He had to eat crow because I knew what I was talking about!

Lessoned learned from this bike is:

I'll never surrender my bike for engine/tranny work again to a dealer.I'll let them fix small items under warranty and just eat the cost of the internals myself,That way I'll control careully inspecting each and every part that goes into my bike.

In all the years I rebuilt engines.The only engines that came apart were "Rebuilts" after I installed them that someone else built that the shop made me install due to the customer needing the vehicle back ASAP.

I refused to do things the cheap way and No come backs is how I built a solid reputation and a loyal customer following even when they were inconvienced to drive to the shop where I was at the time.
 
#12 ·
What you are discribing has been my point since last summer about ghost shifting trannys. The parts will all mic in spec ... there is no measurable wear on any of the parts other then shift shaft A. Since this problem was first reported, others here have been told that a bad shift fork or bad shift drum caused their ghost shifting, I am saying that ghost shifting caused damage to their shift fork or drum damage. The shift forks and shift drum being damaged are a result of the ghost shifting and not the cause of ghost shifting like many have been lead to believe.

Truths I know about ghost shifting.
- they are unexpected shifts up or down between 2 through 5 or 5 though 2.
- the damage in the transmission is cause from it, not worn parts or deffective parts causing it.
- all parts when inspected, vertually show no wear and mic in spec.
- it is not cause from having chrome handles, heal toe shifters, or any other myths incorrectly started long ago.
- it can happen to any American made GL1800.
- it has nothing to do with oil type or brand.
- it usually starts prior to 10,000 miles but not always.
- beleiving preloading the shift lever, or shifting at higher/lower RPM or miles/hour, does not change weather it is a ghost shifter or not.
- replacing the worn parts, does not correct it ... it only puts the tranny back to how it was when new ... it is still a ghost shifter.
- a first, the rider might describe it as "the rear tire slipped on a wet leaf." Confusion usually occurs regarding what gear it is in or was in.
- sometimes, it may attempt to shift down, hit a nuetral position, oult to "bouce" back to the gear it was in.
- it is not the riders fault.

All the stated above is assuming the Wing is being opperated according to the Operators Manual. That would mean no trailer, side car, or trike. That the Wing is not above it GVW, and shifting according as instructed in that manual. So long as the Wing is not being abused, the above describes what I know about ghost shifting thus far ... "I'm just saying."

Rocky, for all the above reason, I believe yours is a ghost shifter.

Glad to hear we have similar backgrounds. Mine started in 1973 with 4 yrs of extensive, formal trainning in auto shop. Then I apprenticed under a National Plymouth Trouble Shooting Contest winner who would never let up on theory constantly drilling me, drilling me, and drilling me more. Over the years it has really paid off, but nothing like it is now.

I'll be spliting the case on the one in my shop tomorrow. I'm expecting to find broken gears like your. Fortunatly, I have not seen case damage or oil leaking from it. The engine is pulled and waiting to be benched.

If you where to tear some of these down yourself, you will see that this has nothing to do with year of bike. No tranny part numbers from 01-10 changed. On my 07, the engine was stamped NV 03. I beleive that means the 3 case parts were machined in Nov 03, and that engine could have been installed in any Wing from 03-10. Years do not matter. There will be fewer problems with 2001 since less then 4000 GL1800 units where sold in the US compared to nearly 40,000 per year now. So numbers like that greatly affect likelyhood. But probably the same percentage is true for all years. One could have the engine/trans blue printed, but at our level, we have nothing to compare a blue print too with out an original copy.
 
#13 ·
So if all the parts are within specs, what causes the transmission to ghost shift with the problem bikes? My 03 has never missed a gear or ghost shifted....and I don't believe for a second that just because a engine or transmission is made in Japan that it will be any better than one that is made in the USA. My Yamaha Road Star was made in Japan. Yamaha recalled every Road Star they made from 99 to 05 or so because some transmissions would lock up while riding...not just lose a gear, but lock up the rear wheel.....so made in Japan doesn't mean they are made better...just another myth.
 
#14 ·
So if all the parts are within specs, what causes the transmission to ghost shift with the problem bikes? My 03 has never missed a gear or ghost shifted....and I don't believe for a second that just because a engine or transmission is made in Japan that it will be any better than one that is made in the USA. My Yamaha Road Star was made in Japan. Yamaha recalled every Road Star they made from 99 to 05 or so because some transmissions would lock up while riding...not just lose a gear, but lock up the rear wheel.....so made in Japan doesn't mean they are made better...just another myth.
Ask anyone who has rode a 2012 about the difference in the way the transmission feels and shift. I was at Daytona when the National service rep open said they were looking at he machining process for the new model. Consider yourself lucky, trust me if you were one of the ones who's transmission went south your attitude would be different.
 
#15 ·
I've never been inside a GoldWing engine/tranny case. I have no claim as "expert" or superior experience, but I can think. When the shifting maladies were first reported years ago with the GL18s I suspected a smathering of poorly heat treated shift forks to the be root of the problems, plus rider error. Then the deal about parts all being in spec, but the range of in spec tolerances allowing an assembly to be far enough arye to disccombobulate also made sense to me. In truth, it may be like the wobble, there are more reasons than what initially meets the eyes.

I am reasonably certain that the mis-shifts I experienced in the early years of my GL18's life were my own lazy shifts and I have developed a habit of making firm shifts and keeping my big foot away from the shifter while cruising. For Greg and Rocky; its damn good to see folks that know putting some thought and effort into resolving the issues and kinda fun to sit back and watch them bump heads over it.

prs
 
#17 ·
Fred, I have been doing research lately on crotch rockets and the upgrades that are avail for them. One of them caught my eye and got me thinking about the shift cam and the stop arm. Looking at other trannys cams (they like to call them stars) I find it interesting how low the valleys are between the points compared to the wing's. As soon as my baby runs out of extended warranty I'm going to buy a new shift cam and modify it to see what effect it has on the shifting. I know the stop arm rides along the valleys and points. It stops the drum at the bottom of one of the valleys for each gear. Looking at the profile, the slopes look, well for lack of a better word, lazy. They don't drop very steeply in between the points. I know the paw pulls the cam with the pins in it and believe the drum would rotate quicker into the next gear if these slopes were steeper letting the stop arm's tension and wheel help to finish the movement.

On the crotch rockets, they replace the cam, stop arm with one that has a nice ball bearing wheel on it, and they replace it's spring with a heavier, higher tension unit. Instead of a stiffer paw spring, what about a stiffer stop arm spring to help hold the drum more positively?

What do you think?
 
#18 ·
So if all the parts are within specs, what causes the transmission to ghost shift with the problem bikes? My 03 has never missed a gear or ghost shifted....and I don't believe for a second that just because a engine or transmission is made in Japan that it will be any better than one that is made in the USA. My Yamaha Road Star was made in Japan. Yamaha recalled every Road Star they made from 99 to 05 or so because some transmissions would lock up while riding...not just lose a gear, but lock up the rear wheel.....so made in Japan doesn't mean they are made better...just another myth.
Can we at least hope the hose clamps are tight !!!
 
#20 ·
Fred, I have been doing research lately on crotch rockets and the upgrades that are avail for them. One of them caught my eye and got me thinking about the shift cam and the stop arm. Looking at other trannys cams (they like to call them stars) I find it interesting how low the valleys are between the points compared to the wing's. As soon as my baby runs out of extended warranty I'm going to buy a new shift cam and modify it to see what effect it has on the shifting. I know the stop arm rides along the valleys and points. It stops the drum at the bottom of one of the valleys for each gear. Looking at the profile, the slopes look, well for lack of a better word, lazy. They don't drop very steeply in between the points. I know the paw pulls the cam with the pins in it and believe the drum would rotate quicker into the next gear if these slopes were steeper letting the stop arm's tension and wheel help to finish the movement.

On the crotch rockets, they replace the cam, stop arm with one that has a nice ball bearing wheel on it, and they replace it's spring with a heavier, higher tension unit. Instead of a stiffer paw spring, what about a stiffer stop arm spring to help hold the drum more positively?

What do you think?
Most likely, if a simple fix like that or a stronger spring would correct it, Honda would have remedied that problem with a new part number going forward.
 
#21 ·
I would agree except, if Honda were to do that, then you would have a sh_t load of pissed off Goldwing owners all over them for repairs they didn't cover in warranty and others that feel like it was a defect from the beginning and want their $$$ back for having to have their trannys rebuilt. I think from a legal and financial point of view Honda will never change anything in that tranny even if they built it another 10 years. My warranty runs out in July and if my summer goes like I need it to we will see in the fall. :thumbup:
 
#22 ·
I would agree except, if Honda were to do that, then you would have a sh_t load of pissed off Goldwing owners all over them for repairs they didn't cover in warranty and others that feel like it was a defect from the beginning and want their $$$ back for having to have their trannys rebuilt. I think from a legal and financial point of view Honda will never change anything in that tranny even if they built it another 10 years. My warranty runs out in July and if my summer goes like I need it to we will see in the fall. :thumbup:
All Honda would do is show a superseded part number for anything they wanted to replace.They like any other manufacture don't have to explain why!

The ACG for both the 01-05 & the 06-10 were superseded to new numbers without explanation as well as many other parts through the years.

Personally.I believe if the Transmission gears were undercut from 01,then not one transmission would of failed due to the way they are presently cut or lack of,there by not staying engaged when put into gear on the small percentage of bikes with transmission issues.

Modifying the shifter pawl is like changing the steering stem bearings.it may help if it can be done without taking the front cover off 15 times for minor tweaks at a time.
But a band aid approach to the internal issue of gears that don't lock into each.but slip off of each other,yet still be easy to shift with ease.
Undercutting would lock them into/onto each other where they couldn't slip out/off each other to cause the term guys like to use -ghost-shifting..lol
 
#24 ·
All Honda would do is show a superseded part number for anything they wanted to replace.They like any other manufacture don't have to explain why!

The ACG for both the 01-05 & the 06-10 were superseded to new numbers without explanation as well as many other parts through the years.

Personally.I believe if the Transmission gears were undercut from 01,then not one transmission would of failed due to the way they are presently cut or lack of,there by not staying engaged when put into gear on the small percentage of bikes with transmission issues.

Modifying the shifter pawl is like changing the steering stem bearings.it may help if it can be done without taking the front cover off 15 times for minor tweaks at a time.
But a band aid approach to the internal issue of gears that don't lock into each.but slip off of each other,yet still be easy to shift with ease.
Undercutting would lock them into/onto each other where they couldn't slip out/off each other to cause the term guys like to use -ghost-shifting..lol
I have had the oportunity to ride a wing with the gears undercut. What a difference in the way the bike shifts. Rock solid, I can't compare it with anything except to say you know what gear your in, you know your in that gear completely, most of all NO CLUNK.
 
#25 ·
I have had the oportunity to ride a wing with the gears undercut. What a difference in the way the bike shifts. Rock solid, I can't compare it with anything except to say you know what gear your in, you know your in that gear completely, most of all NO CLUNK.
My point exactly.

You guys want to learn about Undercutting? http://www.aperaceparts.com/transmissions.html
 
#26 ·
Here is an example of ghost shifting damaging a shift fork.
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top