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Poor Quality Control

9K views 126 replies 43 participants last post by  stickyfingers 
#1 ·
In my recent review, I mentioned that my exhaust tips are crooked. So, I decided to upload the photo below with horizontal lines so you can easily see what I am talking about. Remember, this is a $27,000 motorcycle!

Vehicle Car Automotive exterior Bumper Trunk


How does something get out of the Honda factory like that?
 
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#102 ·
They have 50% of the HEAVY (651cc +) market. Not overall. Honda made 18,000,000 bikes in 2010. HD sold
222,110 in that same period.
Now if you look at just the US figures they are very close. Hondas 180,000 to HDs 155,000. That is some real competition. And HD as far as I know are all on hwy motorcycles. Hondas figures Include on hwy and off road motorcycles.
 
#103 ·
That's correct, but it is 850cc and higher if I remember correctly. It is a category that Harley created in order to include all the bikes they sell, while excluding many of the most popular bikes sold by the other mfr's. Clever marketing, if not shady.

Harley did regain the overall US lead in market share from Honda about 5 years ago, but it's nowhere near 50%. And they aren't that far ahead of Honda.

Really enjoy the stats on HD... had not seen all the numbers. I'd like to see the profit margin compared between HD's toe rings, socks, ear rings, belly button pins, boots, hats, scarfs, hankies, cups, gloves, jackets, etc., etc., versus their bikes... bet it is neck to neck.... lol --

However, HD is a genius at marketing and all that nostalgia gets them a lot of attention but it comes with a cost (pretty much same bike for years, and can you say expensive maintenance and repair). I confess I've only rented several types of HD's for 1-2 weeks at a time while on several business travel around the US and ride with some good friends who have owned them for years. But I personally, would never choose one over a Honda for a variety of reasons - but hey, this is a GW forum! (of course, I could give the VRod a nod - because that's a nostalgic HD American made engine for sure ... lol)

potato, potato, potato ..... (that's what a single pin crank buys you... and complimentary need for a new set of dentures - i regress - even in my limited experience I actually had to cut a Road King off while setting in summer traffic in SFO because it started to sputter and run hot -- now that's something to complain about - how many times have GW owners been left stranded ?!?!).

  • :joke:

    HD sympathizers... yes, I've heard there are harmonic balance dampeners for some models ....:duck:

 
#104 ·
Is there a source for this claim ??? I can never find anything on honda's goldwing units sold.
Can't find anything on numbers of wings sold. BMW in 2010 only sold a little over 10,000 units in the US. I don't think that there twice as many wings sold yet I bet it's at least equal. Remembering the numbers of wings affected by the recent brake recall it looked like there was ~10-15k wings sold a year in the US.
 
#106 ·
How did my pointing out a lack of quality control and engineering get interpreted as a desire for the Goldwing to go down in flames? I just don't see any evidence that Honda is taking this segment seriously. They put way more thought and workmanship into the new CBR 250 than the 2012 Goldwing.
 
#108 ·
Is there a source for this claim ??? I can never find anything on honda's goldwing units sold.
Webbikeworld publishes BMW's total sales. It's easy to find. As far as the Goldwing goes, Honda and most other companies don't publish exact sales figures for individual bikes, but in 2009, Honda gave an interview to WingWorld magazine to discuss the move to Japan. In that article, Honda stated that to date, they had built over 200,000 GL1800's. Doing some quick math, that mean an average of 25,000 units per year. It's impossible to tell whether that number was for US bikes only, or for total, but you know they could not have exported more than about 5000 bikes. So if you want to be conservative, figure on an average of about 20,000 US bikes.

Honda has sold over 1,000,000 Wings in its history, per Honda back in the mid 2000's. You can do the math yourself. They sold more bikes per year back in the 90's but everyone sold more bikes back then. Sales of all bikes were through the roof.

When you look at car sales, 20-25 thousand per year does not seem like a lot. But in the motorcycle industry, it is. Many models of bikes don't sell more than a few thousand per year. On a per model basis, the Goldwing is a very high sales bike.

We don't know yearly numbers, but it is probably safe to say that Wing sales are way down since the banks collapsed in 2008. The recession has been hard on the whole industry, so that should be expected. Some like to claim that the low sales are due to the bike's design being old and outdated, and that is probably partially true. But I think Honda is just stringing out the old design until the economy recovers. They know that bringing out a new model isn't going to increase sales until consumers start buying again. It isn't because the touring bike concept has outlived its usefulness.
 
#111 ·
But I think Honda is just stringing out the old design until the economy recovers. They know that bringing out a new model isn't going to increase sales until consumers start buying again. It isn't because the touring bike concept has outlived its usefulness.
The only thing that flies in the face of that logic is the money Honda has poured into ridiculous projects like the DN-01 or The Fury during a time when they let the Goldwing sit idle. How much did Honda invest in engineering and tooling up for the VFR1200? And, they certainly don't let their sport bike technology sit for 12 years untouched. They would never sell another CBR if they did that. I sat on a VFR 1200 a couple of days ago at my dealer and drooled over the quality of the paint, same of the Fury.
 
#112 ·
Really enjoy the stats on HD... had not seen all the numbers. I'd like to see the profit margin compared between HD's toe rings, socks, ear rings, belly button pins, boots, hats, scarfs, hankies, cups, gloves, jackets, etc., etc., versus their bikes... bet it is neck to neck.... lol --

However, HD is a genius at marketing and all that nostalgia gets them a lot of attention but it comes with a cost (pretty much same bike for years, and can you say expensive maintenance and repair).

I stopped by a local HD dealer yesterday just to look. I made a round in the store to see what was available. Sometimes I will pick up a trinket for one of my nieces who seem to like HD stuff but will prolly never own a bike. I am always amazed at the amount of bling that is available, both for the bikes AND the folks. It was about 2 P.M. on Thurs afternoon, and there were still a pretty fair amount of folks wondering around. Women in the clothes and jewelry, men in the chrome dept., and a few looking at scoots. Looked like ALL ages too. Nice looking well dressed clerks around the store too. The bikes are eye candy to me, and they sure have some great color schemes. I then stopped at our local Honda place. This place has been up and down and went under for awhile. (at one time they were a TRUE MC hot spot until the original owner sold out and now it has changed hands a few times) Now they have reopened, but I am not sure for what. They had one new wing on the floor. Crooked exhaust and all, and about ten other scoots. Shadow, crotch bike, etc. It appeared that they had a couple of dozen helmets also, but nothing else...nada....empty store. I had to go back in the shop to find the single worker. They had one lift. No tools, no tire machine, nothing. I asked they guy if they changed tires??? No. Do any service...No. Are they still an actual Honda dealer...yes. Did they do the setup on the wing on the floor?? NO???.....He said they were trying to get on their feet. I just can't imagine ANYONE buying a bike there of any kind. Or anything else for that matter. I never understood why Honda never put a little more control on their dealers, both for service and customer relations. All the dealers around here have closed, (except this one has reopened). Most honda dealers I have done biz with over the last ten years have had NO quality control at all...in setups, service, or work personnel. It reflects on the the customer base too....as in none.
 
#113 ·
I agree. HD has done an amazing job with making their dealerships almost like destination attractions. Back when I was riding a Sportster, we used to make a point of going to Harley dealerships no matter where we were just to buy a T-Shirt from that area. I have T-shirts from Harley dealers in Dubai, Australia, New Zealand and all over the US.

One funny story when we were in Dubai. We had a taxi take us to the local Harley dealership, which only had about 5 bikes in the showroom because they always sell as soon as they come in. Anyway, there was a you lady in there trying on all the black leather and chains and boots and stuff, you know the look. She was really hot. She was going in and out of the dressing room, trying on every slutty leather item they made. When she was done shopping, she came out of the dressing room in her full burka! Face covered and everything. She bought about $1,200 of leather Harley gear on the way out.
 
#114 ·
................ Looked like ALL ages too. Nice looking well dressed clerks around the store too. The bikes are eye candy to me, and they sure have some great color schemes. I then stopped at our local Honda place.............. Most honda dealers I have done biz with over the last ten years have had NO quality control at all...in setups, service, or work personnel. It reflects on the the customer base too....as in none.
Sounds like my local Honda dealer (whom I did NOT purchase my bike from, btw).

Had to order a new mount for my 660 .......ordered it from my Harley dealer. The Kury risers I ordered? Ordered them from my local Indy Shop, who is a Harley only wrench.

I tried to spend big bux twice, at my local Honda dealer......couldn't even get CLOSE to a deal either time. I won't spend a penny in there unless I absolutely have to.
 
#115 ·
I stopped by a local HD dealer yesterday just to look. ...... Most honda dealers I have done biz with over the last ten years have had NO quality control at all...in setups, service, or work personnel. It reflects on the the customer base too....as in none.
Sticky,

I get that most points here (like yours above) are anecdotal ... so here's another for ya,... my best friend rides an Ultra after 9 yrs with Road King ... he is on his 3rd Harley dealership here because the other 2 have pi$$ed him off so bad with service and a bunch of BS and voluminous $$$ that he no longer attends there ... I've been there with him... can't believe the snobbery I see at times.... gettin to big for their britches as Momma would say but they feel they have their customers locked in.... so he went to our local 40 yr Honda dealer right before buying his Ultra and came within a breath of going GW this time around... and (as usual) his wife wanted GW !!! (he already owned honda generators, ATV, CB750, etc.,) but then he realized he would have to sell $$ thousands of dollars of "clothing", posters, models, bandanna's etc., etc.,.... and figured he was in. And what mods needed to bring the Ultra to GW standards ? e.g. new stero system, speakers, new heated seats, updated cowling, etc., - major expenses - and then their was the "cheap" HD labor to add them on!! and still not any kind of NAVI, color radar, XM, etc., at the end of the day) ... and well over $30+K in the bike. He sold his Road King because it had an internal oil leak ... sound familiar ... and after several attempts to fix it was still having to add oil.

Not for this guy!! Never. I love my GW for what it is in today's market! Not perfect but from engine up to heated seats it is a well made product overall, reliable and dependable. And our honda mechanic has 30 yrs experience - in fact we have 2 to choose from. If you call him he will even help with questions if you are working on your own bike... always reminding "if it does work out we can help"... costly yes, but at least he's there.
 
#117 ·
The only thing that flies in the face of that logic is the money Honda has poured into ridiculous projects like the DN-01 or The Fury during a time when they let the Goldwing sit idle. How much did Honda invest in engineering and tooling up for the VFR1200? And, they certainly don't let their sport bike technology sit for 12 years untouched. They would never sell another CBR if they did that. I sat on a VFR 1200 a couple of days ago at my dealer and drooled over the quality of the paint, same of the Fury.
I don't think it defies logic at all. Companies don't just stop doing R&D during recessions. They just cut their budgets and cancel big buck projects. You can't dispute that developing a bike like the Wing from the ground up is Honda Powersports Divisions most expensive development project, by far.

Not only that, the DN-01 has Honda's HFT transmission. That transmission has been in development for many years, long before the economy dumped. I suspect that is why the bike they put it in was so poorly thought out. Honda had been talking about that transmission publicly for some time. They had no choice but to deliver a bike with it. What we ended up with is a bike that was just thrown together. I think Honda made a big mistake with that bike.

The VFR1200, with it's dual clutch transmission, and the new V-4, is a similar animal. That bike was under development long before the recession hit. It was ready for production right about that time.

Look at the history of the Wing. How long was the GL1500 in production? 13 years? Then look back at the models before that. The Wing was being constantly updated, with major model changes about every 5 years. Wanna guess why thing changed? The Goldwing had competition back then, in the Voyager, Cavalcade, and Venture. Once those bikes withered away, there was nothing left. Honda has been able to milk the paid off R&D, because if you wanted a real touring bike, you didn't have too many choices. The K1200LT has been the Wing's only competition, but fears of reliability problems and maintenance costs scared people away.

Now there's nothing else left, unless you want a Glide.
 
#119 ·
Even before the recession in 2008, I was hearing all kinds of excuses for why Honda never updates the Wing. Since I bought my first Wing in 2005, there have been three new CBR platforms.
Go look up how long other bikes were around without a major ground up redesign. The Concours ZG1000 (20 years). How about the Voyager? (22 years?) How about the K1200LT? (12 years) How about the ST1100? (12 years, 16 if you count the police version) FJR1300, (11 years and counting) Why are you bashing Honda for their lack of re-design? It's pretty much standard for the industry with big bikes.

Honda did major upgrades to the GL1800 in 2006 and 2012. Just because it has the same frame doesn't mean they aren't upgrades. Even though much of the plastic looks similar, there is very little about a 2012 that is the same as a 2001. Very few parts can be interchanged between the bikes. They may not have made the changes you wanted, but they did change them.

Honda isn't the only motorcycle mfr out there. If Honda isn't giving you the type of product you want, either from a quality, service, or technology standpoint, try one of the others. Everyone has a right to be happy with what they buy, considering how much they cost. But if you are not happy with how long Honda goes between new designs, you may not want to go look at a Harley. :lol:
 
#120 ·
I don't think it defies logic at all. Companies don't just stop doing R&D during recessions. They just cut their budgets and cancel big buck projects. You can't dispute that developing a bike like the Wing from the ground up is Honda Powersports Divisions most expensive development project, by far.

Not only that, the DN-01 has Honda's HFT transmission. That transmission has been in development for many years, long before the economy dumped. I suspect that is why the bike they put it in was so poorly thought out. Honda had been talking about that transmission publicly for some time. They had no choice but to deliver a bike with it. What we ended up with is a bike that was just thrown together. I think Honda made a big mistake with that bike.

The VFR1200, with it's dual clutch transmission, and the new V-4, is a similar animal. That bike was under development long before the recession hit. It was ready for production right about that time.

Look at the history of the Wing. How long was the GL1500 in production? 13 years? Then look back at the models before that. The Wing was being constantly updated, with major model changes about every 5 years. Wanna guess why thing changed? The Goldwing had competition back then, in the Voyager, Cavalcade, and Venture. Once those bikes withered away, there was nothing left. Honda has been able to milk the paid off R&D, because if you wanted a real touring bike, you didn't have too many choices. The K1200LT has been the Wing's only competition, but fears of reliability problems and maintenance costs scared people away.

Now there's nothing else left, unless you want a Glide.
Harley has managed to screw up the reliability and durability of the Glides too! I was very seriously considering a new Ultra until I started doing a little research. Sounds like many of the '12's have a serious and very widespread problem with the charging system (read - stranded owners of brand new bikes), plus they cheaped-out on the crankshaft design a few years ago and it's been problematic ever since.

Those new Beemers ain't even in the running - not for me anyway. From what I've been seeing on the K1600 forums, they can't figure how to make a switch that works for any length of time - plus all the other usual failure/stranded stories.

If I get a new bike at all, it'll be a Wing - period! Been a LONG time since I've heard any stranded stories from Wing owners. In fact, I don't remember ever hearing one - other than a flat tire or something like that. I'm way too old to be worrying about being stuck out in the middle of BFE with a crapped-out bike. I know that it can happen with any vehicle, but the Wings seem to minimize the chances more than any other bike brand. :bow:
 
#121 ·
Go look up how long other bikes were around without a major ground up redesign. The Concours ZG1000 (20 years). How about the Voyager? (22 years?) How about the K1200LT? (12 years) How about the ST1100? (12 years, 16 if you count the police version) FJR1300, (11 years and counting) Why are you bashing Honda for their lack of re-design? It's pretty much standard for the industry with big bikes.

Honda did major upgrades to the GL1800 in 2006 and 2012. Just because it has the same frame doesn't mean they aren't upgrades. Even though much of the plastic looks similar, there is very little about a 2012 that is the same as a 2001. Very few parts can be interchanged between the bikes. They may not have made the changes you wanted, but they did change them.

Honda isn't the only motorcycle mfr out there. If Honda isn't giving you the type of product you want, either from a quality, service, or technology standpoint, try one of the others. Everyone has a right to be happy with what they buy, considering how much they cost. But if you are not happy with how long Honda goes between new designs, you may not want to go look at a Harley. :lol:
Hey, I'm all about the "if it ain't broke, don't f**k with it" philosophy! That's why I've decided to go with a Wing for my next - and very likely last - new bike. They may be a little dated, but by god they work! 'Nuff said.
 
#122 ·
Everyone wants to see a re-designed Wing. So do I. It will get here when it gets here. And it might still have crooked tailpipes. But people will buy it anyway, because very few people will notice it. Goldwing owners ride their bikes instead of standing in parking lots admiring them. And you can't see the tailpipes while you're riding it. And they don't break very often, so who needs a center stand.
 
#123 ·
Cruiseman, we don't see eye to eye, but I hope there are no hard feelings. You take this stuff far more seriously than I do, and I will respect that. It's been fun. But I have to let this go. There isn't much more that can be said.
 
#124 ·
Even before the recession in 2008, I was hearing all kinds of excuses for why Honda never updates the Wing. Since I bought my first Wing in 2005, there have been three new CBR platforms.
One word..."racing"...win on Sunday, sell on Monday. You're comparing apples to oranges when it comes to Honda's business model.
 
#125 ·
I agree with Nine29 (win races and sell bikes)... and LarryM facts and figures.... and as much as I have enjoyed this thread and all the folks on it (seriously) and the chatter, time to move on... But one last parting note.... just to challenge my own comments I went to a Harley Forum and searched on "left stranded by brand new bike"... first thing that popped up was about a brand new $38K Ultra --- read the link about service and issue if you dare... but you will see why I am a Goldwing Owner in about 2 minutes and proud of that fact.

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/695599-left-stranded-by-brand-new-cvo.html

cheers!

p.s. the link has 26 pages of HD owner comments... I bet the guy that started it wished all he found at the gas station were some slightly crooked pipes on the rear end of his bike .....

  • :lol:
 
#126 ·
I agree with Nine29 (win races and sell bikes)... and LarryM facts and figures.... and as much as I have enjoyed this thread and all the folks on it (seriously) and the chatter, time to move on... But one last parting note.... just to challenge my own comments I went to a Harley Forum and searched on "left stranded by brand new bike"... first thing that popped up was about a brand new $38K Ultra --- read the link about service and issue if you dare... but you will see why I am a Goldwing Owner in about 2 minutes and proud of that fact.

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/695599-left-stranded-by-brand-new-cvo.html

cheers!

p.s. the link has 26 pages of HD owner comments... I bet the guy that started it wished all he found at the gas station were some slightly crooked pipes on the rear end of his bike .....

  • :lol:
The guy that started that thread (Cpt.Denny) used to be a member of this forum when he owned a '06 1800.
 
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