Anti- dive fix for the 1800's
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    Seasoned Member Wing One's Avatar
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    Default Anti- dive fix for the 1800's

    I take no credit for this article, I found it.

    Scroll down for pics.

    In the past I have had a problems with the anti dive system on my GL1800’s, until I fixed them.
    The history
    I have two medium mileage GL1800’s (2003) one for me and one for my wife, both bikes have suffered with an anti dive problem. The brakes operate a slave cylinder that activates an anti dive actuating valve on the left hand side of the front forks, this slave cylinder only functions when the bike is moving. The slave cylinder has been changed twice on one bike and once on the other leaving me to believe that GL1800’s suffer with this problem. I have ridden many other 1800 wings and least two of them had the same problem but the owners were unaware anything was wrong until they rode my bike! My bikes are regularly serviced and the brakes have had the brake fluid replaced twice to date.

    The symptoms :

    While riding along normally the bike rides wonderfully smooth until I had to slow down or stop. The anti dive valve stays on until it decides to relax; during this time the front end of the bike becomes skittish at very low speeds or while cornering. The problem is also evident while negotiating speed humps in the road, I always slow as I approach them and then release the brakes before I make contact with them, but the suspension remains firm and seems to bounce over the speed hump. The result is that the suspension can finish up almost fully extended after crossing a series of speed humps. I once stopped after crossing one of these speed humps and put the bike on its side stand and waited almost 10 minutes for the front forks to relax back to the normal position.
    On the third time this started to happen I (being an engineer) decided to take a look for myself.


    The Fix:

    The brake slave cylinder is the problem, it forces a 5mm pin into the anti dive actuator to lock up the left fork during braking. This slave cylinder is supposed to return upon releasing the brake lever but it doesn’t always behave as it should, it can take some time to return to its resting position. I took it upon myself to effect a fix that works better than ever and has been working well for the past year. My fix was to fit a small rubber 'O' ring over the pin and remount the slave cylinder to its rightful place, that’s it!


    Method 1:
    The rubber ‘O’ ring is 2.5mm(0.098”) in section x 5mm(0.196”) bore and 10mm (0.393”)O/D made of black silicone rubber, it sits in a void between the slave cylinder and the anti dive actuator. It doesn’t impede anything or prevent anything working it just helps the plunger to return to its rightful position.
    To get at both the slave cylinder and the anti dive actuator is simple… first, remove the top front portion of the mudguard (top front fender) by unscrewing the four recessed (5mm) socket screws. This brings the two units into view on the front of the lower left fork leg, There are two (4mm) socket screws, one each side of the slave cylinder. Undo these… (don’t worry the two items can be separated and there should be no leaks, springs or nasty surprises) and insert the ‘O’ ring, checking first that your ‘O’ ring fits comfortably, without friction, over the 5mm pin on the slave cylinder and in the 10mm recess in the top of the anti dive actuator.


    Method 2:
    You can use two ‘O’ rings instead of the one.(above) The first ‘O’ ring dimension - 1.8mm (0.070”)in section x 5mm (0.196”) bore x 8.5mm(0.334”) O/D and theSecond ’O’ ring dimension - 1.8mm(0.070”) in section x 6mm(0.236”) bore x 10mm(0.393”) O/D, both black silicone rubber. The smallest ‘O’ ring sits on the 5mm pin without friction and the larger ‘O’ ring sits in the recess on top of the anti dive actuator, one on top of the other when assembled. Note: when putting the two units back together be sure the ‘O’ rings are still in place. This gives a slightly slower anti dive reaction under very light braking. I favor this fix.

    You can, if you’re daft enough, (yep that’s me) ride the bike with the two units separated!!! but the bike will dive every time you use the brakes.


    WARNING
    . If you try to fill the void between the two units with rubber the anti dive becomes next to useless. If your bike is still under warranty let Honda sort it. If you have found a leak of any kind from either unit STOP what you’re doing and inform your service centre.

    Happy riding




    Photos and their descriptions


    Here are the pictures I hope they are useful Below is a description of each picture

    The front mudguard (fender) removed 4x5mm socket screws






    Using a 4mm Allen key to detach slave cylinder





    The slave cylinder detached and not leaking






    The top of the anti dive actuator showing the recess






    The two rings I use are still in good working order and the only two tool required for the job






    The largest silicone ring in the recess






    The smallest ring over the 5mm pin - indicated by a screwdriver






    Care taken to place the two items together






    Securing the slave cylinder into place using the 4mm Allen key






    Replacing the front mudguard (fender) using the 5mm Allen key

    Last edited by Wing One; 12-01-2009 at 04:54 PM.
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  3. #2
    Contributing Member kindofblue's Avatar
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    Default Torque value?

    Thanks for the post Wingone. As a new (to Wings) rider, and one who also does much of my own work on my bikes, I have to ask. Is there a torque value for the anti-dive allen bolt?
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    Seasoned Member Wing One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kindofblue View Post
    Thanks for the post Wingone. As a new (to Wings) rider, and one who also does much of my own work on my bikes, I have to ask. Is there a torque value for the anti-dive allen bolt?
    According to the Honda service manual, torque value for the "Anti-Dive Plunger Case Bolt" is

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    3.9 (0.40, 2.9)
    Last edited by Wing One; 11-30-2009 at 08:20 PM.
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    I like this better than the disable fix.

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    "If your bike is still under warranty let Honda sort it."

    Good luck with that.
    Love 'em all... Let GOD sort 'em out!"
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    I fix things for a living, from plumbing to a bike for a friend, but no living off fixing bike, other than a good time, a beer or two and some nonsense.

    Problem with an O,ring under steady and repetive compression is it does take a set and will not continue to function. It is designed to be a seal and that is about it. Some will not withstand oil, or brake fluid, so you do have to pick those that will, others will not take the sunlight and quickly crack and deteriorate.

    I have the perfect fix, a member on this site told me about using two little washers under and between the two halves of the anti dive gadget.

    So I trotted off to Napa and got two small copper washers that will just fit between the two halves of the thing, naturally this leaves a gap so water and dirt can enter........so I placed an O ring around the top section, one that just fits, so now when the sections are bolted back together the o ring does compress enough to seal out the weather, but the washers do not allow it to compess too far, so now you have a good secure fix , with a weather seal.

    This really does take most of the harshness out of the front end, not all of it, but a good majority of it. Makes a nice ride actually.

    Does not totally disable it either, front will dive about 3/4 or an inch or so during an emergency stop and then the gadget works as it should.

    This also takes the constant stress and tear off the left fork and the seals. And if you do choose to carefully use the front brake in a rough curve....not that you should, but sometimes it is cool......no more crowhopping around the corner.

    Best .27 cent fix I have ever seen.

    Kit

    Oh the fellow who asked about what is the proper torque on the two allen head bolts.......well just secure, do not sweat the small stuff.....as a rule of thumb with any allen head bolt, small like that, I use a standard allen wrench.....no not a T handle that you can strip heads out with, just a regular allen, and when you see the shank of the allen just start to flex.....that is enough.
    Last edited by xxxxxxxxxxxxKit Carson; 12-01-2009 at 06:50 AM.

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    Seasoned Member gary4565's Avatar
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    Default anti dive

    Best fix I have seen is using a home made piece of gasket material instead of the washers. You get the same result without worrying about allowing in dirt and water. You can use several thin ones and experiment with "tuning" for the ride you want. I'm going to try this method. Quick, cheap, easy.............ME !
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    "this slave cylinder only functions when the bike is moving."

    Huh?????????? Works whenever you activate the brakes, I thought, moving or not, right?
    Maybe mine is the odd ball, but no problems so far. Not sure why the anti-dive is being rendered inop? It should not effect the ride at all unless the brakes are activated??

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    Thanks Walter & Kit.
    Warmest regards,

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    You're welcome,.
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    Seasoned Member Wing One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfdeputydawg View Post
    It should not effect the ride at all unless the brakes are activated??
    The brake slave cylinder is the problem, it forces a 5mm pin into the anti dive actuator to lock up the left fork during braking. This slave cylinder is supposed to return upon releasing the brake lever but it doesn’t always behave as it should, it can take some time to return to its resting position.
    Last edited by Wing One; 12-01-2009 at 05:40 PM.
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    Money being no object and because I value conservation of (my) energy, I simply ordered one of these from the comfort of my recliner and maintained my position until it arrived. The only drawback was I had to walk out to the mailbox and then had to install it. I would have gladly paid more if it were made to be "self-installing."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfdeputydawg View Post
    "this slave cylinder only functions when the bike is moving."

    Huh?????????? Works whenever you activate the brakes, I thought, moving or not, right?
    Maybe mine is the odd ball, but no problems so far. Not sure why the anti-dive is being rendered inop? It should not effect the ride at all unless the brakes are activated??
    Pedal brake will activate the Anti dive with the bike stationary, lever brake requires the bike to be moving to activate the ADV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfdeputydawg View Post
    "this slave cylinder only functions when the bike is moving."

    Huh?????????? Works whenever you activate the brakes, I thought, moving or not, right?
    Maybe mine is the odd ball, but no problems so far. Not sure why the anti-dive is being rendered inop? It should not effect the ride at all unless the brakes are activated??
    I had that mindset for a long time. I would read about deactivating the anti dive and say to myself, these guys are crazy. I would study the way it worked, look at the orfice in the lower fork and simply say, no way, these guys are full of it. I know more about this than they do.

    Found out they know more than me. That anti dive restricts the flow of the fluid at all times, most of the bikes do have a very harsh front end an on rough roads the vibration can really be felt, bumps at bridges, big tar snakes.

    Very simply taking the preload off the anit dive creates the smooth ride the bike was made to give, lets the fluid work as it should.

    My idea on it after messing with it a few times and studying it a lot is the inertia of the bumps on the road move the plunger all by itself, does not take brake activation to close off the lower port, all it take is a rough road. Just like hitting the end of a hammer handle to drive the hammer head on, you do not pound on the hammer head, but the end of the handle. Same with the plunger, intertia is at work .

    Kit

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    Hey Wing One and Kit,
    First, thanks for taking the time to post the explanation and pictures.............So correct me if I'm wrong,,,,,,,,,the o-ring is nothing more than a "Return Spring"???????? and the Anti-dive function is fully operative???? I have a 08 Titanium, and I think I'm going to install a o-ring for preventive measure.. Thanks again.
    Later on, Ride Safe,
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    Default Anti dive

    Fred Harmons take. http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/antidive

    I also am wondering about the o rings, a washer/shim still need to be used? From what I am guessing. The washers provied a gap, a gasket can also be used on the out side to prevent dirt from the now gap from the washer, with a o ring to prevent dirt from entering? The gasket/shim (being sold) or made by Fred itself is a second way to create the gap from the outside. Right?
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    Default anti dive

    I reread, the O rings act as a dampner to the anti dive not a removal of.
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    Seasoned Member Wing One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip D View Post
    Hey Wing One and Kit,
    First, thanks for taking the time to post the explanation and pictures.............So correct me if I'm wrong,,,,,,,,,the o-ring is nothing more than a "Return Spring"???????? and the Anti-dive function is fully operative???? I have a 08 Titanium, and I think I'm going to install a o-ring for preventive measure.. Thanks again.
    That's correct, "fully operative" after O rings installed.
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    Seasoned Member satkins93's Avatar
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    Freds, review of dive valve fluid flow. http://www.pbase.com/fredharmon/image/38792124
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    I am guessing that any of these techniques do is to not allow the plunger to travel fully into the seat which will allow some fluid to bypass. Is this correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.Stein View Post
    I am guessing that any of these techniques do is to not allow the plunger to travel fully into the seat which will allow some fluid to bypass. Is this correct?
    Pretty much, yes.

    I had a friend who runs a CNC machine, make me some of the shims just like the ones sold on EBay. Except mine cost me a lot less. If anyone wants one send me a PM. They will cost you 10 bucks, and that includes shipping to the lower 48, but it does not include the replacement bolts, because you can get them cheaper than I can mail them to you.
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    Forget the O'ring. A rubber or plastic or other material soft o ring will compress with very little time . They are not made for that purpose, they are made to sit in a groove or slot and seal. Compress them and they take a set very quickly and cease to function.

    A physical no compressing washer, shim, nickel, file off the plunger, whatever, you choose, but the o ring may work for a week or so, then you will be back to square one.

    Kit

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    Seasoned Member Denver717's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit Carson View Post
    I fix things for a living, from plumbing to a bike for a friend, but no living off fixing bike, other than a good time, a beer or two and some nonsense.

    Problem with an O,ring under steady and repetive compression is it does take a set and will not continue to function. It is designed to be a seal and that is about it. Some will not withstand oil, or brake fluid, so you do have to pick those that will, others will not take the sunlight and quickly crack and deteriorate.

    I have the perfect fix, a member on this site told me about using two little washers under and between the two halves of the anti dive gadget.

    So I trotted off to Napa and got two small copper washers that will just fit between the two halves of the thing, naturally this leaves a gap so water and dirt can enter........so I placed an O ring around the top section, one that just fits, so now when the sections are bolted back together the o ring does compress enough to seal out the weather, but the washers do not allow it to compess too far, so now you have a good secure fix , with a weather seal.

    This really does take most of the harshness out of the front end, not all of it, but a good majority of it. Makes a nice ride actually.

    Does not totally disable it either, front will dive about 3/4 or an inch or so during an emergency stop and then the gadget works as it should.

    This also takes the constant stress and tear off the left fork and the seals. And if you do choose to carefully use the front brake in a rough curve....not that you should, but sometimes it is cool......no more crowhopping around the corner.

    Best .27 cent fix I have ever seen.

    Kit

    Oh the fellow who asked about what is the proper torque on the two allen head bolts.......well just secure, do not sweat the small stuff.....as a rule of thumb with any allen head bolt, small like that, I use a standard allen wrench.....no not a T handle that you can strip heads out with, just a regular allen, and when you see the shank of the allen just start to flex.....that is enough.
    Hi Kit,
    I know it has been a while since you did this fix on your wing.
    DO you have any idea how thick the washers were that you used?
    Would you do it different now than when you did the fix the first time?
    Thanks
    Denver
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    Sorry to post a question in the "how-to" section, but an important question goes unanswered here:

    WHY DOES THE ANTI-DIVE PLUNGER STICK?

    Does it mechanically bind up internally inside the anti-dive actuator valve, or does the plunger stick in the hole in the receiver side because of an interference fit problem? Or, is it a fluid dynamics issue?

    Can anyone answer that question with authority?

    If you don't know WHY it's sticking, it's really hard to take the proper corrective action?

    Thanks!

    .
    Last edited by WingMan71; 06-15-2011 at 02:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denver717 View Post
    Hi Kit,
    I know it has been a while since you did this fix on your wing.
    DO you have any idea how thick the washers were that you used?
    Would you do it different now than when you did the fix the first time?
    Thanks
    Denver
    No never measured them. They were copper washers out of a Carb repair kit at Napa Auto parts. I just took the allen bolts with me and got a washer that fit them perfectly and where the outside diameter of the washers would also fit within the design of the anti dive housing.

    Different..........yea, I would have taken the time to find a good O ring. to use to seal the small gap between the halves the washers create, as the one I used was rotten in about two months.

    You could just use silicone. That will withstand the sun and wind and rain and such much better. O rings do not seem to like the sunlight.

    A standard E clip such as what Fred came up with, about that thickness.

    I suppose each bike could vary too, so get four and if not happy use two on each side.

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    Default Anti-dive fix

    Kit,
    Thanks very much for the quick reply. I have the basic idea of what's needed and will proceed from there. I'll look for a suitable seal in place of the o-ring before I get into it though.
    Thanks again
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    Quote Originally Posted by WingMan71 View Post
    Sorry to post a question in the "how-to" section, but an important question goes unanswered here:

    WHY DOES THE ANTI-DIVE PLUNGER STICK?

    Does it mechanically bind up internally inside the anti-dive actuator valve, or does the plunger stick in the hole in the receiver side because of an interference fit problem? Or, is it a fluid dynamics issue?

    Can anyone answer that question with authority?

    If you don't know WHY it's sticking, it's really hard to take the proper corrective action?

    Thanks!

    .
    Aledgedly .... there are two oils used brake fluid and fork fluid ... and the material used for the seals is only ok for one fluid. The other causes the material to expand and cause sticking.

    I cant believe after 4 or so years this is still an issue.

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    Best thing I did to the GW was cut the plunger off with a cutoff wheel. The nickel trick never did a thing. It feels way better, and I don't feel it diving much at all in a panic stop..
    If you think health care is expensive now, wait until
    you see what it costs when itís free. PJ O'Rourke

  30. #29
    Seasoned Member Wing One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobpack View Post
    Best thing I did to the GW was cut the plunger off with a cutoff wheel. The nickel trick never did a thing. It feels way better, and I don't feel it diving much at all in a panic stop..
    Here's a better solution, but if you just change the brake fluid at the recommended intervals you wont need any fix.


    http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282425
    2013 Ducati 1199 Panigale S Tricolore



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  31. #30
    Contributing Member Bobpack's Avatar
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    I agree Walter.. The bike is an 02 and I never changed the brake or clutch fluid until now. The clutch was fine but the brake fluid was milky and watery in the glass jar.
    I disagree with the posts about using brake fluid that was opened. If it was so bad, then opening the master to add the fluid would be equally bad. As long as the opened fluid has a cap on it....It should be fine.
    The anti-dive pissed me off for the last 9 years and I finally have a bike to ride that feels great!!
    If you think health care is expensive now, wait until
    you see what it costs when itís free. PJ O'Rourke

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