Which Trike kits use HONDA'S ABS brakes?
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Thread: Which Trike kits use HONDA'S ABS brakes?

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    Default Which Trike kits use HONDA'S ABS brakes?

    Title says it all. Do all the kit manufacturers use the GL1800 ABS brake system if the bike has that feature? Do some remove the Honda system and use their own ABS? Do some remove the Honda system and just go with standard brakes all around? Are ABS brakes a big improvement on a trike? (Well, the title said SOME of it anyway...)

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    Seasoned Member bmr4106's Avatar
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    From the California Side Car web site:

    Disc Brake System

    Truly masterful engineering went into the design of California Sidecar Trike's COBRA disc brake system and the result is truly confidence-inspiring braking performance. The brakes are completely integrated with the O.E.M Linked Braking System and we are the only trike manufacturer to offer full ABS integration.
    Proprietary, patented, CNC machined four-piston aluminum alloy brake caliper
    11.5" purpose-designed cast rotor
    Check out our Performance Brake Upgrade option.


    http://www.californiasidecar.com/tri...nda_cobra.html
    2006 Titanium, Navi with CSC conversion
    & 2003 Escapade Elite
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    Member T-Man1's Avatar
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    Motortrike IRS list an ABS package as an option.
    2008 GL 1800 Pearl White
    Darksider #1400
    Michelin Primary Alpin PA3 ZP

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    I've got a Motortrike brouchure saying the Venture has the ABS option, but doesn't say whether it's Honda's or their own. CSC "thought" they had the only ABS (at some point anyway).

    I was just wondering if it's another waste of money to buy an 1800 with ABS just to have to throw it away when it gets triked. Sorta like throwing the back half of the bike away because Honda doesn't make trikes. My guess is that ABS will become the feature of choice like IRS has, but that's just a guess and I will certainly not be viewing ABS on a GL1800 as any feature to consider paying more for.

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    Hannigan also retains the ABS system........

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    Seasoned Member Spencer's Avatar
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    Keeping the ABS was a major deciding factor for me in my kit choice.

    In my search I test rode both with and without. During a quick, sandy, parking lot stop I was able to slide the front wheel on the non ABS trike which also meant no steering.

    Couldn't get the ABS trike to do it no matter how much front brake I grabbed. After that I limited my search to only manufacturers who kept the factory ABS.

    .
    2008 Metallic Red Airbagger Hannigan Trike
    2010 Triumph Street Triple RR
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    Another comes out of the woodwork. Maybe I'll have to soften my comment about buying a bike with ABS. I finally did find a one-liner on Hannigan's site. Found nothing on Motortrike's site. DFT only has pictures (I guess a lot of their potential customers can't read). Trikeshop has a pretty informative website, but no mention of ABS that I found. Champion mentions high performance disc brakes, but nothing about ABS.

    Some of the kit manufacturer's websites leave a lot to be desired for a customer looking for information. Maybe they'd rather you get the truth from a salesman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkinTrike View Post

    Some of the kit manufacturer's websites leave a lot to be desired for a customer looking for information. Maybe they'd rather you get the truth from a salesman.




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    Seasoned Member jackj98's Avatar
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    Default Trike Information

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStarTrikes View Post
    [/U][/COLOR][/I]



    Sent an e-mail to CSC asking why they didn't provide a User Manual for their kit. Didn't get an answer........
    I would at least like to have pictures showing me where the Gear Case and Rear End drains and fill holes are..........
    08 GL1800 with 2010 CSC Cobra Kit
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    jackj98@hughes.net

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    Quote Originally Posted by jackj98 View Post
    Sent an e-mail to CSC asking why they didn't provide a User Manual for their kit. Didn't get an answer........
    I would at least like to have pictures showing me where the Gear Case and Rear End drains and fill holes are..........

    Jack98 call me I'll help you with that...........not tonight though. Call tomorrow ok?

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    Seasoned Member Tangle Eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkinTrike View Post
    Some of the kit manufacturer's websites leave a lot to be desired for a customer looking for information. Maybe they'd rather you get the truth from a salesman.
    You are sure right about some of the web sites not having full information for a potential buyer. Most had rather let their salesmen do the talking - some of which should be taken with a grain of salt of course.
    Ron



    Christian Motorcyclists Association
    Iron Butt Association
    2008 GL1800 Audio/Comfort/Navi with
    2010 Hannigan Trike

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    Default Manuals for CSC

    http://www.californiasidecar.com/support.html
    You can download what you need from this link or even call and CSCwill send them to you.
    I never have a problem taliking to someone, normally the right person at CSC. Try Patrick if you do. He'll get the person for you if you can't.

    02 Silver 2010 CSC Aspen Classic and life is good.

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    Seasoned Member Lee H. Mann's Avatar
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    Default From CSC website

    Disc Brake System

    Introduced in 1998, our revolutionary three-disc braking system surpasses all others in efficiency and safety.

    Consider the challenge:
    With the OEM brake system, the hand brake operates the right front caliper and the foot brake operates the left front caliper AND rear wheel caliper. This is fine for two wheels, but not three and here's why. If an emergency braking situation aries while cornering, and a wheel lifts, the natural inclination is to hit the foot brake. This could cause a three-wheeled vehicle to flip because of the left front caliper being activated. With the CSC Trike system, the foot brake operates only the dual rear calipers, while the hand brake, with a newly modified master cylinder, operates both front calipers. The net result is a significant reduction in stopping distance, easier maintenance, and greater peace of mind.
    Truly masterful engineering went into the design of CSC's disc brake system and the result is truly confidence-inspiring braking performance.

    The brakes are completely integrated with the O.E.M Linked Braking System and we are the only trike manufacturer to offer full ABS integration.
    Proprietary, patent-pending, CNC machined four-piston aluminum alloy brake caliper
    11.5" purpose-designed cast rotor

    Anti-lock Brake System is designed to compensate differing wheel speeds during braking. Sensors at the wheels send data to the ABS computer and it signals componants to either release or apply the brake at each axle.
    My question: If the linked system has been disconnected, how is the ABS supposed to work in conjunction with front and rear wheels ?

    I am curious as to how an unlinked brake system can have ABS for front and rear axles ?
    "If my computer is so smart, why doesn't it know my limitations ?"

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    Seasoned Member Spencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee H. Mann View Post
    With the OEM brake system, the hand brake operates the right front caliper and the foot brake operates the left front caliper AND rear wheel caliper.
    Interesting that the CSC site would post misinformation about the OEM liinked braking system.

    Honda's system activates all 3 discs with either hand or foot levers. Front lever uses the 2 outer pistons on the right front disc, the center piston of the left front disc, and outer 2 pistons in the rear. The foot pedal activates the center piston rear, center piston right front, and outer 2 left front pistons.


    .
    2008 Metallic Red Airbagger Hannigan Trike
    2010 Triumph Street Triple RR
    2006 ST1300

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    I saw this 'blurb' on the CSC web site and wondered why that company offers two different brake options. Would the company would have a liability issue if their 'standard' brakes were found to have been inadequate, in a crash, for instance?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmr4106 View Post
    From the California Side Car web site:

    Disc Brake System

    Truly masterful engineering went into the design of California Sidecar Trike's COBRA disc brake system and the result is truly confidence-inspiring braking performance. The brakes are completely integrated with the O.E.M Linked Braking System and we are the only trike manufacturer to offer full ABS integration.
    Proprietary, patented, CNC machined four-piston aluminum alloy brake caliper
    11.5" purpose-designed cast rotor
    Check out our Performance Brake Upgrade option.


    http://www.californiasidecar.com/tri...nda_cobra.html
    ______________________________________________
    Ben
    Austin, TX area
    Many bikes and trikes since 1955, mostly BMWs. Currently looking for a motivated seller with the right Airhead.

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    Seasoned Member IR Harry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee H. Mann View Post
    Disc Brake System

    Anti-lock Brake System is designed to compensate differing wheel speeds during braking. Sensors at the wheels send data to the ABS computer and it signals componants to either release or apply the brake at each axle.
    My question: If the linked system has been disconnected, how is the ABS supposed to work in conjunction with front and rear wheels ?

    I am curious as to how an unlinked brake system can have ABS for front and rear axles ?
    Now I am curious....Does that mean there is a ring on each wheel? If not, what sensors at the two rear wheel send the data?

    Lee, you are a Lehman dealer. How does the ABS get information for each rear axle?
    Happiness keeps you sweet, trials keep you strong, sorrows keep you human,
    failures keeps you humble, success keeps you glowing, but only God keeps you going


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    LOL. This promises to be interesting...

    Quote Originally Posted by IR Harry View Post
    Now I am curious....Does that mean there is a ring on each wheel? If not, what sensors at the two rear wheel send the data?

    Lee, you are a Lehman dealer. How does the ABS get information for each rear axle?
    ______________________________________________
    Ben
    Austin, TX area
    Many bikes and trikes since 1955, mostly BMWs. Currently looking for a motivated seller with the right Airhead.

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    Seasoned Member Lee H. Mann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IR Harry View Post
    Now I am curious....Does that mean there is a ring on each wheel? If not, what sensors at the two rear wheel send the data?

    Lee, you are a Lehman dealer. How does the ABS get information for each rear axle?
    Harry,

    In the normal operation of ABS, there are speed sensors located at each wheel. A car has one at each wheel (4) and a motorcycle has one at each wheel (2). According to CSC's website, they only have 2 such sensors, one on the front wheel (stock location) and one on the differential (rear wheel pickup senson).

    If their system operates at the differential and not at the wheels, one rear wheel could be stopped and the other could be moving (through the differential), thus fooling the sensors. (example: jack the back axle of a trike, with it in neutral, hold one wheel still and spin the other)

    And, since CSC also claim linked brakes, how does it work in conjunction with the outboard calipers that are not tied to the ABS ?

    I am just curious because Lehman does not offer an operational ABS on their conversions. We bypass the computer and disconnect the ABS) Lehman played with the computer on the Goldwing trying to figure a way to trick the program that registers 2 wheels into registering 3 wheels.

    CSC's claim may be legitimate, and I am not an electrical or computer genius but they do claim to disconnest the front brakes from the rear brakes (linked system) and this seems to break the whole ABS argument.
    "If my computer is so smart, why doesn't it know my limitations ?"

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    Seasoned Member Lee H. Mann's Avatar
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    Another point, ABS will only work in a linked system. A car has a dual mastercylinder with one pedal that links the front and rear brakes with a single application. The Goldwing GL1800 has a rear brake mastercylinder that fees he rear brake and the left front caliper.

    The ABS operates on the foot brake entirely (you feel the throb in your foot when they are activated) and not the hand brake (right front caliper). So if you chose to use only the front brake lever to stop the 2 wheeled GL1800, you bypass the ABS.

    I thinks that right ???
    I need a drink !
    "If my computer is so smart, why doesn't it know my limitations ?"

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    The ABS systems the Trike kits incoprarate from CSC and Hannigan use a Toner Ring on the pinion shaft and we mount the bikes pick up sensor right next to it........................real close so as to function properly.

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    Seasoned Member Lee H. Mann's Avatar
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    Yes, I understand that. The data sent to the ABS computer is collected from the drive shaft speed or crown gear speed, but there is nothing picking up the rear wheel(s) speed. The speed of the rear wheels could be different (differential).

    You build them, what do you see ? I don't so I am confused as to the operation taking place with the ABS and the rear wheel calipers.

    Thanks
    "If my computer is so smart, why doesn't it know my limitations ?"

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    Seasoned Member chaz_36's Avatar
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    Default Brakes & ABS

    Here's maybe a a little more clarification about brakes and ABS FWIW..
    1) There is no such thing as all rear or all front brake application on a GL1800 bike or trike with linked brakes
    2) There are three rotors and calipers on a Goldwing bike....two front and one rear and each caliper has three individual pistons
    3) Rear brake pedal actuation causes several things to simultaneously happen eg., pressure is applied to one rear caliper piston, two left front caliper pistons, one right front caliper piston and the anti-dive plunger on the left fork leg. As soon as the left front caliper pistons grip the rotor the secondary master cylinder is actuated which the;n activates the remaining two rear caliper pistons
    4)Front brake application initially activates two right front caliper pistons and one left front caliper piston. When the single left front caliper piston is actuated the secondary master cylinder supplies braking force to the other right front caliper piston and two rear caliper pistons.
    5) All trikes (except DFT which remains stock) use individual calipers at each rear wheel and if the linked system is retained they are paired and seen by the brake system as one.
    5) ABS is actuated by sensors that detect wheel speed and the computer doesn't care where the brake force is applied....ABS can be actuated by rear or front application. On a bike the computer is two channels for two ABS sensors...one on the front (mounted to the right front rotor) and one on the rear. On a bike, the rear ABS sensor effectively measures the wheel speed (which is also driveshaft speed) so speed change on a trike by either wheel causes the driveshaft speed to change and activates the ABS system which pulses the rear brakes. This works exactly like early ABS sytems on cars...they had a three channel ABs computer system....sensors at each front wheel and one mounted on the driveshaft at the differential. Later generation cars with ABS usually have four sensors and four channel computers...
    All in all a very complex technology.
    Last edited by chaz_36; 08-01-2010 at 08:59 AM. Reason: clarification
    Charlie Sheldon
    2009 Silver DFT, 2009 Bushtec
    States where we've triked.....

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    Seasoned Member Lee H. Mann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaz_36 View Post
    On a bike, the rear ABS sensor effectively measures the wheel speed (which is also driveshaft speed) so speed change on a trike by either wheel causes the driveshaft speed to change and activates the ABS system which pulses the rear brakes.
    I agree completely with the entire statement, but what happens to differing wheel speed on a trike (2wheels)through the differential ? When going in a straight line, drive shaft speed (crown gear speed) and wheels speed are relative, however when going around a turn or when one wheel has lost traction (gravel or wet road) wheel speed(s) are no longer relative to drive shaft (crown gear) speed ?

    This is my point exactly and I do thank you for the ABS explanation.

    How does it pulse both rear wheels when the two wheel calipers are not part of the ABS ? I think it pulses the differential (crown gear) speed and not the wheel speed ??????

    Am I wrong ???
    "If my computer is so smart, why doesn't it know my limitations ?"

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    Seasoned Member chaz_36's Avatar
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    Default Brakes

    I agree completely with the entire statement, but what happens to differing wheel speed on a trike (2wheels)through the differential ? When going in a straight line, drive shaft speed (crown gear speed) and wheels speed are relative, however when going around a turn or when one wheel has lost traction (gravel or wet road) wheel speed(s) are no longer relative to drive shaft (crown gear) speed?

    When braking, the driveshaft speed (same as wheel speed) is what is monitored....if either wheel changes speed it causes the driveshaft speed to change and even though there are two wheels the sensor/computer sees it as one (only one driveshaft). As I mentioned, this identical technology was used for many years on cars and light trucks before the advent of 4 channel computers on cars.

    How does it pulse both rear wheels when the two wheel calipers are not part of the ABS ? I think it pulses the differential (crown gear) speed and not the wheel speed ??????

    The two rear wheel calipers are part of the ABS.....they are plumbed together and seen by the computer as the one original brake.
    Last edited by chaz_36; 08-01-2010 at 09:40 AM. Reason: clarification
    Charlie Sheldon
    2009 Silver DFT, 2009 Bushtec
    States where we've triked.....

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    Seasoned Member Lee H. Mann's Avatar
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    OK !!!! So the 3 calipers, the 2 at the wheels and the one at the differential act as one brake. And your explanation makes mechanical sense, but.....when does the ABS get actuated for the front wheel, or does it ever ?

    CSC says:

    With the CSC Trike system, the foot brake operates only the dual rear calipers, while the hand brake, with a newly modified master cylinder, operates both front calipers. The net result is a significant reduction in stopping distance, easier maintenance, and greater peace of mind.
    Truly masterful engineering went into the design of CSC's disc brake system and the result is truly confidence-inspiring braking performance.


    "If my computer is so smart, why doesn't it know my limitations ?"

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    Seasoned Member chaz_36's Avatar
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    Default Brakes

    OK !!!! So the 3 calipers, the 2 at the wheels and the one at the differential act as one brake. And your explanation makes mechanical sense, but.....when does the ABS get actuated for the front wheel, or does it ever ?

    Not sure what you mean about the "one at the differential"? ...there is one caliper at the rear on a bike, replaced by two on most trikes that are siamesed (sp) and seen by the computer as the original one... Most trikes that retain the linked system simply have a "T" fitting at the original rear brake line to supply both rear calipers. The front ABS is actuated whenever the computer senses a wheel speed change while braking....just like the rear.

    CSC says:

    With the CSC Trike system, the foot brake operates only the dual rear calipers, while the hand brake, with a newly modified master cylinder, operates both front calipers. The net result is a significant reduction in stopping distance, easier maintenance, and greater peace of mind.
    Truly masterful engineering went into the design of CSC's disc brake system and the result is truly confidence-inspiring braking performance.

    I'm not sure about the CSC system you describe but I suspect you are reading advertising copy for their older solid axle trike that they no longer build? (was basically the current Champion solid axle design which has split brake system). I do not think their IRS unit splits the system as you describe...Gary can probably confirm this...
    Charlie Sheldon
    2009 Silver DFT, 2009 Bushtec
    States where we've triked.....

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    This has turned into an enlightening thread, but let me get back to my original questions...

    I'll summarize what I think I have learned to this point. If anyone sees any holes let me know:

    DFT retains Honda's original linked brake system (with ABS if equiped), all in original positions even using Honda's rear caliper
    CSC and Hannigan retain the linked system and ABS using some of thier own components.
    Motor Trike has ABS as an option on their Venture kit only, otherwise disc brakes (found no info on how their brake systems work).
    Trike Shop (Roadsmith) and Champion undo Honda's linked brakes using separate front and rear disc brakes with no ABS.

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    Seasoned Member Spencer's Avatar
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    In a nutshell I believe you are correct..with the added components being a second rear brake caliper plumbed in and the rear abs exciter ring being moved to the drive shaft, all other components remaining stock.

    .
    2008 Metallic Red Airbagger Hannigan Trike
    2010 Triumph Street Triple RR
    2006 ST1300

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    Seasoned Member KJ5IX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThinkinTrike View Post
    This has turned into an enlightening thread, but let me get back to my original questions...

    I'll summarize what I think I have learned to this point. If anyone sees any holes let me know:

    DFT retains Honda's original linked brake system (with ABS if equiped), all in original positions even using Honda's rear caliper
    CSC and Hannigan retain the linked system and ABS using some of thier own components.
    Motor Trike has ABS as an option on their Venture kit only, otherwise disc brakes (found no info on how their brake systems work).
    Trike Shop (Roadsmith) and Champion undo Honda's linked brakes using separate front and rear disc brakes with no ABS.
    Pretty much got it
    George Patrick Th.D.
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    Seasoned Member IR Harry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben721364 View Post
    LOL. This promises to be interesting...
    You are right. It did, and I learned something. Thanks for the lesson, Jim....
    Happiness keeps you sweet, trials keep you strong, sorrows keep you human,
    failures keeps you humble, success keeps you glowing, but only God keeps you going


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