Air Pressure Warning - Metzler Rear Tire
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    Seasoned Member DJ Fire's Avatar
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    Default Air Pressure Warning - Metzler Rear Tire

    Longer post, but take from it what you will.

    I always get my tires from the same dealer because they are so inexpensive. Up until this last set of tires, I had only run into a high temp question on the Metzler ME880 once.

    Every visit I end up speaking to the service manager about "correct" tire pressures because they always want to adjust my tires to what they *think* should be in them. My last visit was unique because the service manager had more time available than normal so he pulled me aside and we visited the metzler site to check the recommended pressures.

    You have to be careful here. Sure enough, the dealer was able to pull up a page where metzler listed the suggested cold pressure for the ME880 "2-up heavy" as 48-50 PSI. I questioned this information, but it is on Metzler's site so we bumped the pressure up.

    I have a TPMS system on the bike which shows temp's as well as the normal info. As soon as we left the dealer, we left for a day trip of approx 600 miles. About 100 miles into the trip I was a bit concerned to say the least when the thing lit up the alarm light and showed 187 degrees on the rear tire. After calling the dealer and speaking with him he did not have an answer. We decided to nix the trip and get the bike back to the dealer to check it out. They could not find an issue.

    I just got back from Wingstock and she hit 190 degrees.

    So this morning, I went to Metzler's site to try and find contact info to find the critical temp threshold for the tire when I stumbled on a tiny tidbit of very important information. BELOW the recommended cold tire inflation is a little note with several tire sizes listed. (you'll have to scroll down to see it) One of those sizes is the wing's. Below this tire size listing is ANOTHER recommended pressure JUST for said tires.(excerpt from the site is listed below) Low and behold, the official recommended cold pressure for the 180/60r16 ME880 is 42lbs. I just bumped the tire back to the correct pressure and will test it shortly.

    Inspect what you expect. (Never fully trust the stealer to do their job correctly... it's your life on the line)

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (I should have stayed with my known pressures)

    Now I have to figure out if the tire is damaged from the high pressures & heat.

    http://www.us.metzelermoto.com/web/p...s/default.page

    For bikes with the following rear tire sizes: 170/80-15, 180/70-15, 150/80-16, 160/80-16, 180/60R16, 180/70R16, 200/60R16, 240/50R16, 140/80-17, 160/70-17 D spec, 170/60R17, 210/50R17, 150/70-18, 180/55ZR18, 200/50R18, 210/40R18, 260/40R18, 280/35R18, 300/35R18, 260/35R21.

    ME880 Rear (tires as listed above)Solo - 2 Up Heavy 42
    Last edited by DJ Fire; 09-23-2010 at 10:45 AM.

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    Seasoned Member bluestreakrem's Avatar
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    Never exceed the MAX psi stated on the tire when cold. It's just not a good idea. The info on the tire is DOT certified and tested up to the max load rating at the max pressure. If your not exceeding the GVWR of the bike or tire, it should not be over heating. As your total weight increases, you should be running more pressure, but never more than the max stated on the tire when cold. I personally have never seen a stated max pressure on a radial motorcycle tire above 42 psi. I saw the website data you posted. My guess that it is in error and wrong. I would call them and talk to an engineer. Operating at higher pressures (up to but not exceeding the max) causes the tire to generate a lower temprature due to less flex and tread squirm, so I'd be concerned about the 190 degree temp. Normal max tire temp is closer to 170 degrees than 190. I'd sure watch the tire for any signs of de-lamination from now forward or just replace it because they can de-laminate on the inside and you won't ever seen it until it blows. Be sensitive to any increase in vibration as that could be sign of a de-lamination occuring. I seem to recall hearing more than just a few stories of the Metzler 880 de-laminating on this site. I'm not intenionally bashing the 880, just stating what I beleive I've read on this site.
    Why would you listen to a dealer versus what the tire has stated on it?
    Do you personally know this guy?

    Don't trust your life to a stranger versus what the manufacturer has to say.

    This is some info from Dunlops site. It applies to tires in general as my experience has shown over many years of riding bikes.
    Read as much as you can on the various manufacurer sites about design ond operating parameters and I think you will agree on the importance of maintaning tire pressure in the correct range and never exceed the max stated on the sidewall for an individule tire.
    http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/info...q.asp?id=8#faq

    General pressure suggestions here.........
    http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/info....asp?id=31#tip

    More tire tips from Bridestone........
    http://www.motorcycle-karttires.com/...formation.aspx
    Last edited by bluestreakrem; 09-23-2010 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Added more website data
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    Seasoned Member DJ Fire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestreakrem View Post
    Never exceed the MAX psi stated on the tire when cold. It's just not a good idea. The info on the tire is DOT certified.
    Why would you listen to a dealer versus what the tire has stated on it?
    I did not listen to the dealer. I read the info directly off the Metzler site which the dealer showed me. The manufacturer suggests 48 to 50 psi for 2-up heavy riding. BUT if you scroll down the page, THEN you see that the wing's tire size is listed with many others for a suggested cold pressure of 42.

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    No matter what he says, she says, the tire guys says, the mechanic says, or the tire manufactures says, it is the manufature of the vehical that the tire goes on who DOT holds accountable for putting the sticker on our Wings reguarding the proper tire pressure. It is Honda, who has gone through all the extensive testing regaurding air pressures and tire sizes who is ultimatly held accountable.

    With that being said, there are exections that are considered acceptable. It is important to know that a certain volume of air is needed to carry weight. Therefore, the air pressure should never be lower then the sticker states. A tire is also marked with a max air pressure, meaning that the tire is not designed to carry more then that. If the sticker has a differential of air pressure from front to rear, that is there for proper handling and braking under certain conditions so the differental from front to rear must be maintained. With all that being said, it is acceptable to air your tires never lower then min, never above max, and maintain the differential. If a person needed more air volume for more weight, then increasing using the above rules is acceptable.

    Always remember cold is less then 1 mile of driving and sitting for at least 4 hours.

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    Seasoned Member bluestreakrem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Fire View Post
    The manufacturer suggests 48 to 50 psi for 2-up heavy riding. BUT if you scroll down the page, THEN you see that the wing's tire size is listed with many others for a suggested cold pressure of 42.
    I read the website and my take on the info is that the 50 psi statement applies only to specific model Alpha 880 MH,MT or MU tires.
    Is your tire sidewall marked as one of these?
    What is the date code on your tire?
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    i am a longtime Metzler user (close to 20 sets on my wing, trouble free) but i think Metzler screwed up bigtime when they put that new info on thier website the way they did, its VERY misleading

    now i'm also wondering if the info from your TPMS is reliable ?
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    Seasoned Member bluestreakrem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldWingrGreg View Post
    No matter what he says, she says, the tire guys says, the mechanic says, or the tire manufactures says, it is the manufature of the vehical that the tire goes on who DOT holds accountable for putting the sticker on our Wings reguarding the proper tire pressure. It is Honda, who has gone through all the extensive testing regaurding air pressures and tire sizes who is ultimatly held accountable.
    This is true .............but only for the tire brand that came on the bike from the manufacturer. The reccomended tire pressures on the sticker were developed by Honda in consultation with a specific tire manufacturer (the one that came on the bike originally). That's not to say that another tire brand could not be operated at the same sticker pressures without success, but you should not assume that. If the tire brand is changed by an owner, now the owner must consider any differences in tire design and determine a sutiable operating tire pressure for the new tire, but never above the max psi stated by the tire manufacturer. More and more bikes these days are being furnished with tires made specifically for a particular model bike and by only one tire manufacturer. They consider tread design and a lot of other things to develope a tire that works best for that specific bike. That's not to say that the OEM tire furnished is the only or best tire selection that can be used on that bike, but the owner must not assume a bikes recommened sticker pressures are suitable for all tire manufacturers that make that size tire. As long as the load rating of the tire is not exceeded at the max pressure rating as stated on the tire, you generally won't have any temp problems. Tire temp problems ocur when tire pressure fall below the max stated. For a heavy bike like the wing, I would not run below 10% of the max tire pressure rating of ANY brand tire because they will already be running hotter than a smaller bike would be using the same size tire, due to thier weight. Heavier bikes have a smaller variation in accepatble operational tire pressures because they can be loaded so close to the max load rating of the tire.
    Last edited by bluestreakrem; 09-23-2010 at 12:35 PM.
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    Seasoned Member GatorWing's Avatar
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    Under inflation causes tires to heat up . The air holds up the load not the tire according to Avon.
    I had an Avon Venom de-laminate. Avon sent me a free Cobra replacement. The engineers said most tires de-laminate from heat due to the tire flexing when overloaded.
    I was told the DOT stamp on the side only means the tire can meet the load stamped on it at that pressure per the governments regulations.
    If you are going to exceed that load then you have to increase the air pressure within reason.
    Here is the test I was told to use by the engineers. Air up your tires to the cold pressure shown on the sidewall and ride it for at least 20 minutes with the maximum load you intend to carry.
    Check the air pressure. If it increases more than 12% then it is under inflated.
    If it failed then add a couple of psi only when cold and re-do the test. If you still have a problem after adding a few psi then you need a stronger tire.
    I run a ME 880 with 44 psi for 2-up riding .


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    Have you checked the combined weights of you, your rider, everything you have in your trunk and your bags? I don't know if you pull a trailer, but my guess is you don't have a tire pressure issue, but an overloaded/overworked tire issue. If you check Metzeler's load index number, you will find that the tire Metzeler recommends, the 880 Marathon, has a maximum weight number of 74 which according to their website, means your bike and it's load should be less than 827#. Considering the dry weight of the bike alone is 792# plus fuel, oil, water, accessories, you are probably over the limit Metzeler qualifies that tire to safely carry down the road, before you put anything in a bag or mount the first rider. The reason I run the tire I have on my bike is that it has a weight limit of 1600#. BUT if we want to talk about that we need to go to another area...Some say that it is unsafe, but I will take twice the load bearing ability ANY day. When I see how many of these tires are coming apart, I refuse to install another until some manufacturer gets it right. I love my wife too much to put her life at risk with an extremely overloaded tire.

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    Seasoned Member revrunt's Avatar
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    Sorry, just one more thing....If you continue to buy the cheapest tire on the market, you will continue to discover there is a reason it is cheaper.

    I paid $98 for my tire, monuted and balanced, out the door. OOPs... forget what I just said about cheap tires...

    'course I'm only gonna get about 35-40k miles out of that tire too... Yours probably does MUCH better than that.

    (no offense, just the way the facts stack up.)

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    Seasoned Member DJ Fire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revrunt View Post
    Sorry, just one more thing....If you continue to buy the cheapest tire on the market, you will continue to discover there is a reason it is cheaper.

    'course I'm only gonna get about 35-40k miles out of that tire too... Yours probably does MUCH better than that.

    (no offense, just the way the facts stack up.)
    That's kinda funny. I have nothing to prove to you and others here will tell you of my riding ability and what I put tires through. A car tire will not work for me. Thanks for the interesting way you worded your response though!

    BTW - I do not buy cheap tires. After 160K in 3 years, I think I know something about tires on the wing. My original post was to warn of MISLEADING info on the Metzler site and to be mindful of it. I was also trying to figure out if I am the only one dealing with a high temp issue.


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    Last edited by DJ Fire; 09-23-2010 at 03:59 PM.

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    Seasoned Member revrunt's Avatar
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    My response was supposed to be tongue in cheek, and not to minimize your riding ability. (probly didn't come across that way...) BTW...You did say you bought from this dealer and I assumed chose your tire, based on price. To each his own. The issue of overloading IMHO, is however, the issue with your overheating. (else more pressure would have mitigated it) More pressure=less heat (15 years of dirt track racing. We set our suspension by reading the tire temps.)

    Where is the motorcycle tire designed at ANY price that will carry anywhere near 1500#? (on a trip I have between 80-90# in my bags, and 40-60# on my trailer hitch) Add another 150 to your 1338. Wanna bet how many on this board can sneak their two-up body weights past that 400# number? No wonder an 827# tire has a tendency to heat up and it is predictable the end result will be many that delaminate.

    Avon Cobras are 992# capacity... (I believe)


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    Quote Originally Posted by bluestreakrem View Post
    This is true .............but only for the tire brand that came on the bike from the manufacturer.
    Actually, it is considered true for all the info listed on the sticker which includes the correct tire size and load ratio. Any tire marked with DOT stamping then falls under known DOT/industry standards. That means that all tires stamped with the same size and load rating will have the same air-pessure to load ratio. The exception for this is any tire that does not meet/have a DOT stamping (racing and off-road tires) and of coarse tires having different sizes and load markings.
    Last edited by GoldWingrGreg; 09-23-2010 at 05:20 PM.

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    I guess I've just been lucky, but I was taught as a young'in to go only by the pressures stated on the tire. No internets or anything like that then. Heck, they did not even have the wheel yet. Boy, it hurt to say that! Anyway, I can see how anyone can be mislead today with all of the sources of information available. Shame on Metzler. The manufacturer should know what has always been considered religion as far as far as tire pressures. CHECK THE TIRE. All the info above is great info and we should all take heed. (About using the tire as the only source of pressure information.) DJ, thanks for the post. You probably have helped a lot of people. Also, I would ask the dealer to replace the tire or at least get you another at cost and install it for free. I would not trust that tire... Thanks again.


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    Quote Originally Posted by revrunt View Post
    Have you checked the combined weights of you, your rider, everything you have in your trunk and your bags? I don't know if you pull a trailer, but my guess is you don't have a tire pressure issue, but an overloaded/overworked tire issue. If you check Metzeler's load index number, you will find that the tire Metzeler recommends, the 880 Marathon, has a maximum weight number of 74 which according to their website, means your bike and it's load should be less than 827#. Considering the dry weight of the bike alone is 792# plus fuel, oil, water, accessories, you are probably over the limit Metzeler qualifies that tire to safely carry down the road, before you put anything in a bag or mount the first rider. The reason I run the tire I have on my bike is that it has a weight limit of 1600#. ...
    On my Wing part of that load is carried on the front tire...
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    I'm surprised that you saw higher temps from an over-pressured tire (I would have thought it might run a bit cooler if any change at all...) but thanks for the report and info.
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    Seasoned Member DJ Fire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
    I'm surprised that you saw higher temps from an over-pressured tire (I would have thought it might run a bit cooler if any change at all...) but thanks for the report and info.
    AGREED! That's what's really throwing me for a loop. Now when we went to alaska I know I was running "heavy" and she did not get hot. This is the first time I have run into this issue on a consistent basis. The only other time she got hot was when I had the rear brake rotor replaced on the 06. It took a while for the pads to seat to the new rotor thus things ran a bit warm for a while but she never went over 187 degrees that time.

    I bumped my pressure back to 43 and the temp problem did not arise today BUT there are contributing factors that I could not duplicate that should be noted... I can also state that the tire DID hit it's normal temp of 156 degrees and stayed there.

    Contributing factors...
    I was not doing interstate speeds today. (Temp has only been an issue at interstate speeds.) Also... ambient temp was in the low 80's then high 80's and the last temp issue was with ambient temps 95 and above.

    Dealer is not willing to work with me on this. Metzler isn't helping much at this point.

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    Seasoned Member DJ Fire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revrunt View Post
    You did say you bought from this dealer and I assumed chose your tire, based on price. To each his own.
    Price has nothing to do with it. Performance is all I care about on tires.
    Quote Originally Posted by revrunt View Post
    The issue of overloading IMHO, is however, the issue with your overheating. (else more pressure would have mitigated it) More pressure=less heat (15 years of dirt track racing. We set our suspension by reading the tire temps.)
    Perhaps I have failed to explain my problem clearly. The rear tire with cold inflation of 48 PSI will hit 190 degrees. This is with just me on it so I know it's not an overloading issue as the same temp can be reaching while 2-up with a trailer. Myself and my co-rider tip the scales at just over 300 lbs. trailer tongue weight is less than 50 lbs easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by revrunt View Post
    Where is the motorcycle tire designed at ANY price that will carry anywhere near 1500#? (on a trip I have between 80-90# in my bags, and 40-60# on my trailer hitch) Add another 150 to your 1338. Wanna bet how many on this board can sneak their two-up body weights past that 400# number? No wonder an 827# tire has a tendency to heat up and it is predictable the end result will be many that delaminate.
    Forgive me but as previously stated you are looking at this as though the entire weight of the wing were on just the rear tire. Your logic is flawed and since you run a car tire I respectfully decline to continue discussion on a topic of a motorcycle tire with you since you are obviously using the opportunity to push your car tire mentality. If you have something constructive to contribute to THIS THREAD TOPIC please post away!

    Quote Originally Posted by revrunt View Post
    Avon Cobras are 992# capacity... (I believe)
    and they're a crappy tire IMHO. I just logged 1500 miles on an 08 with the cobras and I am THRILLED that I did NOT buy them for my own bike.

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    Seasoned Member GatorWing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
    I'm surprised that you saw higher temps from an over-pressured tire (I would have thought it might run a bit cooler if any change at all...) but thanks for the report and info.

    The Metzler page is very confusing and the double talk should be changed .
    I just installed a Doran TPS on my 09 Wing. I can set the baseline for the two loss of air warnings .The pressures are dead on and I will be able to read pressures on the fly to see if either tire goes above the 12% rule.
    My bike came with Honda's POS TPS and there is no interference.
    I can't imagine why Honda would put a system on a bike set for warning baseline pressures that no one uses . About as user friendly as their nav system .
    I know Fred H. is working on something that may indicate pressures.
    I unscrewed one sensor just enough to simulate a slow leak. No amber warning light . It is a blinding RED light .
    The Doran display on their new units are back lit contrary to competitors comparison charts.


    Sorry for the rant but I just finished the install about a half hour ago .
    Last edited by GatorWing; 09-24-2010 at 02:35 AM.


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    "
    Originally Posted by revrunt
    Avon Cobras are 992# capacity... (I believe)
    "
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Fire View Post
    ...
    and they're a crappy tire IMHO. I just logged 1500 miles on an 08 with the cobras and I am THRILLED that I did NOT buy them for my own bike.
    Well, so far, I'm happy to say that my experience to date is different than yours. We just did 4,178 miles 2-up towing the Aspen Classic with a Cobra front and a 180/70/16 Cobra rear and it has (knock on wood) performed flawlessly.

    Of course, it could go to pieces on me tomorrow but so far, I like it...
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  22. #21
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    I do not find the Metz page confusing. It plainly says 42 psi, two up, heavy for that size tire.

    Kinda strange as more pressure generally equals less heat. ???

    Maybe it is the tire pressure monitor system??? Only way you would know for sure is to use a hand held test gun to double check the onboard system .


    On another note the Avon Cobra is a 74 rate, same as others. Only the E3 is higher 992 something like that.

    I would get someone to double check the TPMS with a hand held. Eliminate that first.

    Kit

  23. #22
    Seasoned Member revrunt's Avatar
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    Seriously sorry about the hijack... Hope you find and solve the heat issue.

  24. #23
    Seasoned Member DJ Fire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kit Carson View Post
    Kinda strange as more pressure generally equals less heat. ???

    Maybe it is the tire pressure monitor system??? Only way you would know for sure is to use a hand held test gun to double check the onboard system .
    I did that with a short test today. Leaving in a couple of hours for WOS in NC and will continue to monitor the tire temp with the tpms and the hand held.

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